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need advice for Charging outlet for townhouse

yesman686

Member
Aug 30, 2020
27
9
Toronto
Hello all,

i'm planning to get model Y and i test drive it 2 weeks ago, i like it and now my plan is does it possible to setup the charging outlet (NEMA 14-50) in my garage.

my breaker is 100AMP, i checked all label as follow: electric stove(40AMP) , dryer(30AMP) , AC(30AMP). I contacted with the management and it is not allow upgarde to 200amp.

i contacted one of the electrician he recommend to setup 40amp 14-50 outlet for the car charger in garage.

My question is it will overloaded the breaker if i turn on all at once? for example. i cooking with stove and turn on the dryer, at the mean time the AC kick in while i charging the car at evening?

My friend (model X owner) recommended plug in the charger and setup the charging time / turn on the charging while you go sleep, so nothing is running at the same time. Can i do it on the mobile app? the way to enter the garage is outside of my house, i don't want to running to plug in the charger in the winter time (possible -40'C here in canada).

can anyone share your charging experience if you can't update to 200amp?
Thank you

PS: my breaker is located inside the house
 
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rypalmer

Active Member
Aug 22, 2014
1,379
1,470
Canada
@yesman686 it really depends on your driving patterns. For most, 24A @ 240V is plenty of power. Even half that will help greatly. I wouldn't sweat the expensive panel upgrade and instead try to make do with a dryer outlet (NEMA 14-30) at most. If there's any way you can run your cord to an existing outlet, some real life experience will help you make a decision as to when and what to get an electrician to help with.
 

pb2000

Member
Dec 22, 2019
211
243
Calgary
I was able to put in a 40A 14-50 on my 100A service (and I even have a hot tub) after talking with the city codes officer. He did mention that plugs are handled differently than hard wired devices, so I would not have been able to install a Tesla wall connector, at least on that breaker size.

Before I pulled the permit, I tested everything in my house with a clamp meter and other than the stove, nothing drew even close to the breaker it was on.
Dryer 19.2A/14.6A (tumble motor is 120V)
Hot tub 23A/23A (heater and circulation pump - no jets)
Oven 35.7A/21.9A (oven preheat and 2 small burners that appeared to have been on the same leg)

Dryers and stoves turn heating elements on and off to maintain the set temperature, so even those numbers are a worst case.

A/C compressors will have a current spike when the first start (HACR breakers should handle this, but most installers still way oversize breakers), but once they are running, don't use that much power. For 35C outside 24C inside, 8A (2 ton) 11.5A (3ton) 14.5A (3.5ton) is about what you can expect from a modern 13 SEER unit (+ whatever your blower motor uses).
 

jdw

Supporting Member
Jun 1, 2015
687
1,315
Vancouver
You could consider using a DCC-10 (or DCC-9) - they measure the overall draw and cut back the EV charging if the panel or meter draw exceeds 80% of rated load. Very common in condo installations as panels are usually 100-125A and they also allow billing on the owners meter. The DCC-10 goes after your panel, the DCC-9 goes in between your meter and your panel. It would depend where your panel and meter are to decide which to choose. There are 20,30,40,50,60 Amp versions.

DCC Electric - Thermolec
 

Casmium

Member
Sep 14, 2018
324
328
Mississauga
Sort of the same situation, you can program your car to start charging at a certain time or manually stop/start charging in your app. Haven't found myself doing any midnight cooking and laundry with the AC going yet in two years but your situation may vary.

Depending on how far you drive and if you park inside or outside of your garage(in winter) 20amps will probably be fine, and anything more is even better. If you I stall the 40amp breaker you can even manually limit the current in your car to 20 amps on the screen if you happen to need fresh closes and a turkey at 2 am.
 
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yesman686

Member
Aug 30, 2020
27
9
Toronto
You could consider using a DCC-10 (or DCC-9) - they measure the overall draw and cut back the EV charging if the panel or meter draw exceeds 80% of rated load. Very common in condo installations as panels are usually 100-125A and they also allow billing on the owners meter. The DCC-10 goes after your panel, the DCC-9 goes in between your meter and your panel. It would depend where your panel and meter are to decide which to choose. There are 20,30,40,50,60 Amp versions.

DCC Electric - Thermolec
Good to know, thank you
 

yesman686

Member
Aug 30, 2020
27
9
Toronto
I was able to put in a 40A 14-50 on my 100A service (and I even have a hot tub) after talking with the city codes officer. He did mention that plugs are handled differently than hard wired devices, so I would not have been able to install a Tesla wall connector, at least on that breaker size.

Before I pulled the permit, I tested everything in my house with a clamp meter and other than the stove, nothing drew even close to the breaker it was on.
Dryer 19.2A/14.6A (tumble motor is 120V)
Hot tub 23A/23A (heater and circulation pump - no jets)
Oven 35.7A/21.9A (oven preheat and 2 small burners that appeared to have been on the same leg)

Dryers and stoves turn heating elements on and off to maintain the set temperature, so even those numbers are a worst case.

A/C compressors will have a current spike when the first start (HACR breakers should handle this, but most installers still way oversize breakers), but once they are running, don't use that much power. For 35C outside 24C inside, 8A (2 ton) 11.5A (3ton) 14.5A (3.5ton) is about what you can expect from a modern 13 SEER unit (+ whatever your blower motor uses).

Great! i might need to get the clamp meter to check my current amp on each too. thanks for the detail. i believe it should be ok too. have to install the DCC-10 as one of the member recommend? that's im thinking to get the 14-50 40amp to be installed. will you able to schedule the charging time on your mobile app? i checked on youtube some owner can do the scheduling while he has tesla wall charger. i dont know can i do it while i use 14-50 or anything beside tesla wall charger
 

yesman686

Member
Aug 30, 2020
27
9
Toronto
Sort of the same situation, you can program your car to start charging at a certain time or manually stop/start charging in your app. Haven't found myself doing any midnight cooking and laundry with the AC going yet in two years but your situation may vary.

Depending on how far you drive and if you park inside or outside of your garage(in winter) 20amps will probably be fine, and anything more is even better. If you I stall the 40amp breaker you can even manually limit the current in your car to 20 amps on the screen if you happen to need fresh closes and a turkey at 2 am.

thank you, Yes, good idea! the winter weather condition might going worst in Toronto in canada. im talking -20 to -35'C without wind chill. my friend told me i have to think deep since i might park my car in driveway as im the one go to work very early and i might need to warm my car while charging on last couple hours before the departure time.
 

Mayday1

Member
Jun 29, 2020
33
17
BC
Hello all,

i'm planning to get model Y and i test drive it 2 weeks ago, i like it and now my plan is does it possible to setup the charging outlet (NEMA 14-50) in my garage.

my breaker is 100AMP, i checked all label as follow: electric stove(40AMP) , dryer(30AMP) , AC(30AMP). I contacted with the management and it is not allow upgarde to 200amp.

i contacted one of the electrician he recommend to setup 40amp 14-50 outlet for the car charger in garage.

My question is it will overloaded the breaker if i turn on all at once? for example. i cooking with stove and turn on the dryer, at the mean time the AC kick in while i charging the car at evening?

My friend (model X owner) recommended plug in the charger and setup the charging time / turn on the charging while you go sleep, so nothing is running at the same time. Can i do it on the mobile app? the way to enter the garage is outside of my house, i don't want to running to plug in the charger in the winter time (possible -40'C here in canada).

can anyone share your charging experience if you can't update to 200amp?
Thank you

PS: my breaker is located inside the house

I live in a townhouse as well, with 125 amp service; similar major appliances (dryer & heat pump) but I have a gas range. Primary heating was previously baseboards. After the heat pump was installed, I don’t use the baseboards anymore w/exception of 1 occasionally during winter time.

With my current set up I‘d overload the panel if I was using the heat pump, dryer, D/W, tv/stereo etc. while charging at the same time (had I installed a 14-50 etc outlet).

So, instead of installing a new outlet, my electrician installed a load miser (on the wall directly behind my panel, which happens to be a small storage area so it’s hidden). It runs off the dryer breaker and gives priority to the dryer if I was charging at the same time.

The load miser (aka dryer buddy) ensures you stay within your allotted amps (and doesn’t affect the load to your building).

It gets really complicated and very expensive if you upgraded the service to your panel (which isn’t possible because they’d need to increase service to your entire complex).

My townhouses have separate attached garages so it would be very easy for an owner to install an outlet instead of the load miser.. it costs an add’l ~ $1,500 to install the load miser vs. $700-$800 to install only the outlet + cost of the charger.

I’ve looked into this quite extensively for my building and created some rules for the install (require electrical permit and submit specific photos of the load miser).

I installed my charger back in March when our provincial gov’t had an add’l rebate for chargers. Haven’t used it yet since I’m still waiting delivery for my MY :|

Anyway, hope this helps and good luck!
 

DMC-Orangeville

85D and John Deere 5100E
Feb 14, 2015
938
1,159
Orangeville ON Canada
Great! i might need to get the clamp meter to check my current amp on each too. thanks for the detail. i believe it should be ok too. have to install the DCC-10 as one of the member recommend? that's im thinking to get the 14-50 40amp to be installed. will you able to schedule the charging time on your mobile app? i checked on youtube some owner can do the scheduling while he has tesla wall charger. i dont know can i do it while i use 14-50 or anything beside tesla wall charger
Rather than clamping on a meter, contact Toronto Hydro (you said you were in Toronto in another post). They will provide you a full energy profile for the last year......showing your use. It's that profile that ESA uses when they inspect your electrical work.
 

pb2000

Member
Dec 22, 2019
211
243
Calgary
Great! i might need to get the clamp meter to check my current amp on each too. thanks for the detail. i believe it should be ok too. have to install the DCC-10 as one of the member recommend? that's im thinking to get the 14-50 40amp to be installed. will you able to schedule the charging time on your mobile app? i checked on youtube some owner can do the scheduling while he has tesla wall charger. i dont know can i do it while i use 14-50 or anything beside tesla wall charger
I had to open my panel to get my readings, but I don't recommend this unless you're comfortable working around live power.

I wouldn't bother with the DCC device, just drop to a 30A plug/breaker if the electrical inspector objects (I think this is extremely unlikely unless you have any baseboard heaters or other 240V loads you haven't mentioned).

You can schedule and control A/C charging (works with wall, mobile or even J1722 chargers) from the app and you can also manually lower the amperage in the car if you don't need the full 32A (I normally run 20A).
 

1965Falcon

Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
109
193
Vancouver, WA
To follow proper electrical code, you will need to do a load calculation (this is what an electrician will do to see if you have capacity).

https://www.ladbs.org/docs/default-...lation-form-in-form-00.pdf?sfvrsn=1ca8e453_20

You may indeed have physical capacity... but if you want your insurance to cover you if anything goes wrong you want to make sure you have not exceeded what code will allow.

**Edit, this is only applicable in the US... not the OP's location in Canada
 
Last edited:

DMC-Orangeville

85D and John Deere 5100E
Feb 14, 2015
938
1,159
Orangeville ON Canada
To follow proper electrical code, you will need to do a load calculation (this is what an electrician will do to see if you have capacity).

https://www.ladbs.org/docs/default-...lation-form-in-form-00.pdf?sfvrsn=1ca8e453_20

You may indeed have physical capacity... but if you want your insurance to cover you if anything goes wrong you want to make sure you have not exceeded what code will allow.
That is NEC (US) standard.

It is correct that you need to meet Canadian code standards, AND you will need an electrical inspection from ESA, for safety and insurance, so it's important that you comply to code.
The CEC (Canada) standard allows for a much simpler approach. Yes, a load calculation could be used, but, as per my previous posts, a consumption survey can now be used: From a post on another thread:
"The use of a 12 month consumption history. This is now available from ALL Ontario utilities, and it shows an average hourly use, per month, by the hour. ESA will take the largest hourly number, add 25% and see if it does not exceed 80% of the panel rating. He did say that this should allow a significant amount of people to go without upgrading their service."
 

1965Falcon

Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
109
193
Vancouver, WA
That is NEC (US) standard.

It is correct that you need to meet Canadian code standards, AND you will need an electrical inspection from ESA, for safety and insurance, so it's important that you comply to code.
The CEC (Canada) standard allows for a much simpler approach. Yes, a load calculation could be used, but, as per my previous posts, a consumption survey can now be used: From a post on another thread:
"The use of a 12 month consumption history. This is now available from ALL Ontario utilities, and it shows an average hourly use, per month, by the hour. ESA will take the largest hourly number, add 25% and see if it does not exceed 80% of the panel rating. He did say that this should allow a significant amount of people to go without upgrading their service."

Whoops, should have caught the Canada location... greetings neighbors!
 
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pb2000

Member
Dec 22, 2019
211
243
Calgary
That is NEC (US) standard.

It is correct that you need to meet Canadian code standards, AND you will need an electrical inspection from ESA, for safety and insurance, so it's important that you comply to code.
The CEC (Canada) standard allows for a much simpler approach. Yes, a load calculation could be used, but, as per my previous posts, a consumption survey can now be used: From a post on another thread:
"The use of a 12 month consumption history. This is now available from ALL Ontario utilities, and it shows an average hourly use, per month, by the hour. ESA will take the largest hourly number, add 25% and see if it does not exceed 80% of the panel rating. He did say that this should allow a significant amount of people to go without upgrading their service."
Finally some good sense and a use for smart meters. I also don't get what the issue is with accidentally exceeding 80% or even popping the main breaker (I'm talking a once in a decade occurrence). I personally have underground 90C #1 Aluminum feeder, which is good to 115A, so that seems like decent safety margin to me.
 

yesman686

Member
Aug 30, 2020
27
9
Toronto
I had to open my panel to get my readings, but I don't recommend this unless you're comfortable working around live power.

I wouldn't bother with the DCC device, just drop to a 30A plug/breaker if the electrical inspector objects (I think this is extremely unlikely unless you have any baseboard heaters or other 240V loads you haven't mentioned).

You can schedule and control A/C charging (works with wall, mobile or even J1722 chargers) from the app and you can also manually lower the amperage in the car if you don't need the full 32A (I normally run 20A).

Thanks and yes, i have one baseboard which close to that main door which i can turn it on or off (not a big deal to turn off), should i get electrical inspector to inspect my house before getting the electrician to install the 14-50 outlet?

by the way i just email to Toronto Hydro to get the full energy profile report. Let see how long it take from hydro
 

Webeevdrivers

Active Member
Jan 2, 2017
2,248
3,956
Canada
We have a townhouse with 100 amp panel. Had an electrician come in and do proper assessment. He installed a 14-50 in the garage on a 50 amp breaker. We use the 32 amp mobile connecter that comes with the car. We have electric stove, electric dryer and central air but gas water heater and furnace.

Hope that helps.

cheers.
 
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