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need advice for Charging outlet for townhouse

brkaus

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2014
7,718
6,250
Austin, TX
I feel like you are overthinking this. The DCC is going to set you back $1000 or so. If you need it, go for it, but if you don't have a large house & electric heat you have a chance.

If the electrician is doing a proper load calc and the permitting authority will sign off on it, I'd put in the 14-50. Use the timer in the car & set the current at a lower number except when you really need it.

If they won't sign off on a 14-50, put in a 14-30. Still will charge most folks overnight. Yes, you have a tremendous challenge with the cold, but if you schedule your charging right it should be doable.

How many miles do you drive a day?
 

pb2000

Member
Dec 22, 2019
211
243
Calgary
should i get electrical inspector to inspect my house before getting the electrician to install the 14-50 outlet?
When you pull an electrical permit, an inspector from the local jurisdiction must visit (often for rough-in and completion) before you can close the permit. If you hire an electrician, he/she will generally do all the work to code and the inspection is just a formality. EV charging is a bit new, so it never hurts to find an electrician who's already done a few installs and knows the procedure.
 
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jdw

Supporting Member
Jun 1, 2015
687
1,315
Vancouver
I mentioned the DCC-10 solution as it is *way* cheaper than a new panel, especially if you need a service upgrade.

You could probably wing it, especially if you only charge at night, but if a number of major appliances are being used while you are charging it would be inconvenient to have the main breaker pop. I have a 200A amp panel, but if the oven, cooktop, water heater, dryer and heating were all on altogether while charging at 32 or 48A, it likely would be lights out simlar to your example. The DCC units just prevent that. The DCC-9 is particularily useful in that regard as it is used between the meter and the panel (before the panel main breaker).

If your service is rated higher than your panel, you might pick up some extra capacity.
 
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yesman686

Member
Aug 30, 2020
27
9
Toronto
I just found out the Toronto Hydro has the smart meter online usage report. Here is the one of the summer time last month, the max peak is 2.88kWh, with AC on all the time, however, im not sure do i turn on the dryer or washer


2020-08-31_230356.png
Winter:
the max date of usge is 36.17kWh
2020-08-31_230523.png


sorry, im not a electrician, i dont how to do the math of amp on the peak hour.
 

George I

Member
Oct 24, 2017
45
34
Toronto
If you plan on living where you are for more than a year or 2 consider an HPWC. HPWCs are much more convenient. Mobile connectors are not designed to be plugged/unplugged daily for years on end. The mobile connector should always be in your car when you travel. If you must use a mobile connector (because you had to get an outlet and not hardwire everything) then buy a second mobile connector that is dedicated for home charging and another (with multiple adapters) stays in the car.
You can adjust your amps on the screen in the car and you can set the charge start time. Make it a habit to have it start say midnight and say 32 or 32A. You are very unlikely to be running dryer or stove/oven at that time and you AC demand will be less. If for some reason you need the faster charging of 40a before you dial it up (temporarily) you can check the house & tell the family that for tonight no dryer use etc.
 

pb2000

Member
Dec 22, 2019
211
243
Calgary
If you plan on living where you are for more than a year or 2 consider an HPWC. HPWCs are much more convenient. Mobile connectors are not designed to be plugged/unplugged daily for years on end.
HPWC's count as a hardwired device (unless you do a 14-50 tailpiece), it's counted differently in your load calculations and the inspector may not approve it.

As for, 14-50 plugs wearing out, just stay away from the $5 ones at the home center and you'll be fine. You could replace the outlet and the tesla 14-50 adapter 5+ times and still be out ahead. There are enough J1772's around for unexpected L2 charging needs that I don't bother carrying my mobile adapter unless I'm straying off the beaten path, or I can charge at my destination.
 
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brkaus

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2014
7,718
6,250
Austin, TX
If you plan on living where you are for more than a year or 2 consider an HPWC. HPWCs are much more convenient. Mobile connectors are not designed to be plugged/unplugged daily for years on end. The mobile connector should always be in your car when you travel. If you must use a mobile connector (because you had to get an outlet and not hardwire everything) then buy a second mobile connector that is dedicated for home charging and another (with multiple adapters) stays in the car.
You can adjust your amps on the screen in the car and you can set the charge start time. Make it a habit to have it start say midnight and say 32 or 32A. You are very unlikely to be running dryer or stove/oven at that time and you AC demand will be less. If for some reason you need the faster charging of 40a before you dial it up (temporarily) you can check the house & tell the family that for tonight no dryer use etc.

I have only used my mobile connector when I visited my family on a road trip. All the other charging I do on the road is with the J1772 connector. Or a supercharger or destination charger. The requirement to carry a mobile connector really isn’t there for me. Is PlugShare used in Canada? If so, look around on its map and use the various filters.

There just aren’t that many 14-50 outlets in the wild and a regular wall plug isn’t that useful.

Of course, everyone’s needs are a bit unique, but that’s my experience over the past 3 years and a total of 90k miles on two Teslas.
 

yesman686

Member
Aug 30, 2020
27
9
Toronto
Based on the graphs, you should have no issues at all getting approved for a 40A 14-50 plug.
Thank yo
If you plan on living where you are for more than a year or 2 consider an HPWC. HPWCs are much more convenient. Mobile connectors are not designed to be plugged/unplugged daily for years on end. The mobile connector should always be in your car when you travel. If you must use a mobile connector (because you had to get an outlet and not hardwire everything) then buy a second mobile connector that is dedicated for home charging and another (with multiple adapters) stays in the car.
You can adjust your amps on the screen in the car and you can set the charge start time. Make it a habit to have it start say midnight and say 32 or 32A. You are very unlikely to be running dryer or stove/oven at that time and you AC demand will be less. If for some reason you need the faster charging of 40a before you dial it up (temporarily) you can check the house & tell the family that for tonight no dryer use etc.
Yes, thank you for you advise, and very great idea! i'm very sure to buy the 2nd set of the charging cord if im going to use the 14-50 outlet for charging
 

yesman686

Member
Aug 30, 2020
27
9
Toronto
I have only used my mobile connector when I visited my family on a road trip. All the other charging I do on the road is with the J1772 connector. Or a supercharger or destination charger. The requirement to carry a mobile connector really isn’t there for me. Is PlugShare used in Canada? If so, look around on its map and use the various filters.

There just aren’t that many 14-50 outlets in the wild and a regular wall plug isn’t that useful.

Of course, everyone’s needs are a bit unique, but that’s my experience over the past 3 years and a total of 90k miles on two Teslas.
thank you :) , i know the Canada home depot parking lot has some electric car charger since I never have an e-car and I have no idea how it works, I believe it is a slow charger since it doesn't have any cable handing the plug.

one thing I am scared of is the cold weather in Canada. I drove Mercedes B class when I trip to my aunt in Montreal from Toronto 4 yrs ago.it's around 600km trip. I was stopped on the highway since the downhill was icy and even the salt truck slipped to the side. the weather like freezing rain with -2 - 2'c.everyone was stuck in the cars for 4 hrs until everyone got out of the car and salting the icy road until melted. Hope it not happen again
 

brkaus

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2014
7,718
6,250
Austin, TX
Here are the outlet filters for Plugshare (app or web) for when you are on the road or need a quick charge -

The ones checked can be used by a Tesla. However, CHAdeMO needs a ~$500 adaptor. Wall is too slow to help much esp in the cold, but worthwhile overnight. There aren't too many 14-50 in my part of the world.

J-1772 are most common. You can use the adaptor that comes with the car. The capability of the J1772 chargers varies widely.

I do hope that there is a CCS/SAE adaptor available sometime in the future for North American cars.

Yes, weather holdups and such are a concern. But, again, I've aways managed to find J1772 if I was totally stuck. May need to go out of the way, etc. But I've never used a 14-50 (or wall) on a regular trip. At least not without special consideration before heading out.



upload_2020-9-2_8-31-2.png
 

Webeevdrivers

Active Member
Jan 2, 2017
2,248
3,956
Canada
Here are the outlet filters for Plugshare (app or web) for when you are on the road or need a quick charge -

The ones checked can be used by a Tesla. However, CHAdeMO needs a ~$500 adaptor. Wall is too slow to help much esp in the cold, but worthwhile overnight. There aren't too many 14-50 in my part of the world.

J-1772 are most common. You can use the adaptor that comes with the car. The capability of the J1772 chargers varies widely.

I do hope that there is a CCS/SAE adaptor available sometime in the future for North American cars.

Yes, weather holdups and such are a concern. But, again, I've aways managed to find J1772 if I was totally stuck. May need to go out of the way, etc. But I've never used a 14-50 (or wall) on a regular trip. At least not without special consideration before heading out.



View attachment 583521

Informative post especially for newbies to the EV/Tesla world. The CCS adapter thing would be nice, but it will have to be at least 75 to 100 KW to be a substantial improvement over the Chademo adapter. But let’s hope that happens. There is apparently a Korean developer doing some work on an adapter.
 

brkaus

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2014
7,718
6,250
Austin, TX
Informative post especially for newbies to the EV/Tesla world. The CCS adapter thing would be nice, but it will have to be at least 75 to 100 KW to be a substantial improvement over the Chademo adapter. But let’s hope that happens. There is apparently a Korean developer doing some work on an adapter.
I'd like CCS because the EA chargers have multiple CCS but only one CHAdeMO. Neither are necessary for my personal use in my area, but that is going to vary greatly by driving patterns and location.
 

Webeevdrivers

Active Member
Jan 2, 2017
2,248
3,956
Canada
I'd like CCS because the EA chargers have multiple CCS but only one CHAdeMO. Neither are necessary for my personal use in my area, but that is going to vary greatly by driving patterns and location.

Yah true. Here as well in BC. Here in BC the Chademo/CCS network is 10 times the size of the supercharger network and is growing much faster as well. The most common user of Chademo stations are Tesla’s. A CCS adapter would improve things substantially for Tesla owners.
 
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MD-2000

Member
May 1, 2019
551
370
Winnipeg
I have 100A service, and I installed a NEMA14-50 socket n the garage. It works. After using the portable charger for a few months, I bought a wall charger with a 14-50 plug. Unfortunately (maybe for a reason) Tesla has discontinued these. I had the $7 Home Depot plug, the red wire melted down by the socket at one point. I replaced it, and the charger kept dropping down to 15A signalling overheating. I replaced the socket with a Hubell 9450 (about $160) but still have the overheating problem. For now, I live with the reduced amperage, I have set the max charging on the car down to ensure it stays low. My attached garage is insulated but not heated, so never as bonechilling as outdoors in winter. I even replaced the wiring from 8Ga to 6Ga so I could safely run 40A instead of 32.

Those breaker amps are nominal - your appliances probably rarely draw half that. The stove breaker, for example, may be 40A but you can turn on all the elements and the oven and not pop the breaker. How often are you running them all? Plus - if you are draawing a continuous current for a length of time, it should not be greater than 80% of breaker size. You don't run a 40A breaker/circuit at 40A continuous.

I set my car to begin charging at 1AM. Presumably by then I'm done with cooking and laundry. I have never popped the main breaker. a 32A charger gives you about 47km/h. If your maximum charge is 400km (80%) You can charge from zero by 9AM the next morning. But, usually you are nowhere near 0km, my worst days I would hit 100km. And if it doesn't fully charge by the next morning? It will the following night unless you are the sort of person who travels 350km several days in a row. You can also manually begin charging any time if you watch your power consumption, or make the start time midnight depending on your power habits.
 
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pb2000

Member
Dec 22, 2019
211
243
Calgary
I have 100A service, and I installed a NEMA14-50 socket n the garage. It works. After using the portable charger for a few months, I bought a wall charger with a 14-50 plug. Unfortunately (maybe for a reason) Tesla has discontinued these. I had the $7 Home Depot plug, the red wire melted down by the socket at one point. I replaced it, and the charger kept dropping down to 15A signalling overheating. I replaced the socket with a Hubell 9450 (about $160) but still have the overheating problem.
That either leaves a problem at your panel or improper installation of the plug(s). You need to get an electrician out to look at it asap before you burn down your house.
Those breaker amps are nominal - your appliances probably rarely draw half that. The stove breaker, for example, may be 40A but you can turn on all the elements and the oven and not pop the breaker. How often are you running them all? Plus - if you are drawing a continuous current for a length of time, it should not be greater than 80% of breaker size. You don't run a 40A breaker/circuit at 40A continuous.
The nameplate on my oven is 66A, but that includes 2x 15A plugs, warming zone and warming drawer. I'm pretty sure I occasionally draw 36A on a 40A breaker, although now that I know how the burners are laid out, I'll be less likely to do that in the future.
 

yesman686

Member
Aug 30, 2020
27
9
Toronto
I have 100A service, and I installed a NEMA14-50 socket n the garage. It works. After using the portable charger for a few months, I bought a wall charger with a 14-50 plug. Unfortunately (maybe for a reason) Tesla has discontinued these. I had the $7 Home Depot plug, the red wire melted down by the socket at one point. I replaced it, and the charger kept dropping down to 15A signalling overheating. I replaced the socket with a Hubell 9450 (about $160) but still have the overheating problem. For now, I live with the reduced amperage, I have set the max charging on the car down to ensure it stays low. My attached garage is insulated but not heated, so never as bonechilling as outdoors in winter. I even replaced the wiring from 8Ga to 6Ga so I could safely run 40A instead of 32.

Those breaker amps are nominal - your appliances probably rarely draw half that. The stove breaker, for example, may be 40A but you can turn on all the elements and the oven and not pop the breaker. How often are you running them all? Plus - if you are draawing a continuous current for a length of time, it should not be greater than 80% of breaker size. You don't run a 40A breaker/circuit at 40A continuous.

I set my car to begin charging at 1AM. Presumably by then I'm done with cooking and laundry. I have never popped the main breaker. a 32A charger gives you about 47km/h. If your maximum charge is 400km (80%) You can charge from zero by 9AM the next morning. But, usually you are nowhere near 0km, my worst days I would hit 100km. And if it doesn't fully charge by the next morning? It will the following night unless you are the sort of person who travels 350km several days in a row. You can also manually begin charging any time if you watch your power consumption, or make the start time midnight depending on your power habits.

thanks, i used to drive total 50-60km from office to home. it should be fine unless on the weekend short trip. it shouldn't be a issue.
 

yesman686

Member
Aug 30, 2020
27
9
Toronto
Also, i got one electrician on site this morning, he will send me a quote later this weekend. He also said i can install the Tesla wall charger too; however, i might need to get the electric power report to get proof the ESA inspection which it will not overload the breaker. He think 14-50 is more enough for daily drive. I total agree.

Received another company quotation this morning:

Thank you for reaching out to us for your charging needs. Please find a link to your estimate located at the bottom of this email.

Please note that I've quoted you on the installation of the NEMA 14-50 receptacle as this setup will charge your car at the maximum charge rate available from your panel which is 48km/hr. There is no advantage to purchasing the Tesla Wall Connector.

These are the steps that will follow after you receive your estimate:

1.) Email back confirming your acceptance of the estimate
2.) Schedule an installation date with us
3. If you do not already have your NEMA 14-50 adaptor, please --> order it here <--
4.) We install your Level II Charger, which can be used immediately

quote screenshot attached
2020-09-02_121041.jpg
 
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pb2000

Member
Dec 22, 2019
211
243
Calgary
For comparison, doing it myself I spent about $375 (+$120 for permit) adding a small sub panel and running 8/3 ~10m to the outlet. That's probably a fair price if wire has to be fished through walls and the run is fairly long, but is a bit steep if your main panel is in the garage with a 2m run to your outlet.
 

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