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Need for Level 1 Charging?

Jeepxj

Member
Jan 18, 2020
123
85
NYC
Actually, this thread is about providing inexpensive level 1 charging at places like airports where EVs park for weeks.

Does anyone have ideas on how to get airports to provide such charging facilities?

contacting them and explaining the need helps. they however get more incentives for L2 installs so its a difficult sell. I'd start with offsite parking places. more likely to get them on board. i'd gladly pay an extra buck or two a day knowing I have an outlet to use at long term
 

Big Earl

bnkwupt
Supporting Member
Jul 12, 2017
6,347
12,305
Springfield, VA
Yes, well, people say lots of stuff. I'm looking for the information to support such a claim. I believe I saw someone post that the battery self heating comes on somewhere between -20F and 20F. 20F is pretty common around here. I have no reason to think the car can protect the battery by running self heating for a week without depleting the battery. Is there any info available about this?

The battery won’t start heating on its own (if it even will at all) until deep in the negatives. I have personally spent significant time in the -5 to -10°F range and there was no battery heating unless requested by me (turn on climate control from app, start charging or navigate to Supercharger).

L1 charging at airports would be great. One reason why large outfits like airports (and in my case, a university) are reluctant to install regular outlets is due to the liability of people using their own charging equipment. They’d rather outsource the charging infrastructure to a company so they can be the ones responsible for providing safe equipment. There are L1 EVSEs out there, but at that point it doesn’t cost much extra to provide L2 equipment with power sharing.
 
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Sophias_dad

Active Member
Supporting Member
Jul 29, 2018
1,903
2,111
Massachusetts
One reason why large outfits like airports (and in my case, a university) are reluctant to install regular outlets is due to the liability of people using their own charging equipment.

Imagine another case even if the users equipment does not fail.

What happens when for whatever reason that L1 charge circuit at the airport fails(trips for whatever reason), and the user is in some far-off land for several weeks or months and his car is bricked as a result? (Ya... ignore the stupidity of parking at ANY airport for months at a time). Who gets to pay for the new batteries for the car? I imagine this might be a possibility if the user knew they'd be arriving with small charge(lets say 10%) and expected to get a nice long L1 charge session(probably free) while they were gone.
 
contacting them and explaining the need helps. they however get more incentives for L2 installs so its a difficult sell. I'd start with offsite parking places. more likely to get them on board. i'd gladly pay an extra buck or two a day knowing I have an outlet to use at long term

Already contacted the airport I'm currently using. They replied by telling me about the level 2 and 3 chargers they've installed with government grants. Oh well.
 
The battery won’t start heating on its own (if it even will at all) until deep in the negatives. I have personally spent significant time in the -5 to -10°F range and there was no battery heating unless requested by me (turn on climate control from app, start charging or navigate to Supercharger).

In one of the threads a person posted a data display from his car that showed the heating threshold was just below 20 degrees F. He said the value can range between -20F and 20F "depending" on factors he did not list.


L1 charging at airports would be great. One reason why large outfits like airports (and in my case, a university) are reluctant to install regular outlets is due to the liability of people using their own charging equipment. They’d rather outsource the charging infrastructure to a company so they can be the ones responsible for providing safe equipment. There are L1 EVSEs out there, but at that point it doesn’t cost much extra to provide L2 equipment with power sharing.

Level 1 and level 2 EVSE have little to do with safety. The charger is in the car. I think the EVSE I've seen have an internal GFCI as the only safety feature that the car cable doesn't have and I'm not sure the car cable doesn't have that. I can't imagine there would be a safety issue involved. Many airports have outlets in parking facilities intended for other uses, but don't prohibit them being used for EV charging. Zero difference there.
 

Big Earl

bnkwupt
Supporting Member
Jul 12, 2017
6,347
12,305
Springfield, VA
In one of the threads a person posted a data display from his car that showed the heating threshold was just below 20 degrees F. He said the value can range between -20F and 20F "depending" on factors he did not list.
I was browsing through that thread a few minutes ago. It’s important to note that his 19.4°F heating target was with the car on. The car won’t heat the battery while parked and unplugged, which is why Tesla advises not exposing it to -24°F for >24 hours without it being plugged in.

Level 1 and level 2 EVSE have little to do with safety. The charger is in the car. I think the EVSE I've seen have an internal GFCI as the only safety feature that the car cable doesn't have and I'm not sure the car cable doesn't have that. I can't imagine there would be a safety issue involved. Many airports have outlets in parking facilities intended for other uses, but don't prohibit them being used for EV charging. Zero difference there.

I understand where the charger is. The point I was making is that with a regular wall outlet, you’re relying on the car owners to supply their own equipment (EVSE).

The arguments my employer used against installing wall outlets were 1.) the possibility of someone plugging in faulty equipment, and 2.) the wall outlet itself not being designed for that type of regular heavy duty use. Both of these arguments seem pretty lame to me … I’m just sharing what some of these hang-ups are. My employer felt similarly about installing NEMA 14-50 outlets in the garage.

My argument against user-supplied EVSEs relates to inviting theft and vandalism.
 
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I was browsing through that thread a few minutes ago. It’s important to note that his 19.4°F heating target was with the car on. The car won’t heat the battery while parked and unplugged, which is why Tesla advises not exposing it to -24°F for >24 hours without it being plugged in.

So the only point you dispute is the temperature where a continuous charging connection is required? Where do you find info that says the car will not heat the battery if not plugged in? I'd like to read the entire text. A google search on that text did not find anything useful.


I understand where the charger is. The point I was making is that with a regular wall outlet, you’re relying on the car owners to supply their own equipment (EVSE).

The arguments my employer used against installing wall outlets were 1.) the possibility of someone plugging in faulty equipment, and 2.) the wall outlet itself not being designed for that type of regular heavy duty use. Both of these arguments seem pretty lame to me … I’m just sharing what some of these hang-ups are. My employer felt similarly about installing NEMA 14-50 outlets in the garage.

My argument against user-supplied EVSEs relates to inviting theft and vandalism.

The theft and vandalism is easily dealt with in the same way they prevent theft and vandalism to the cars themselves. There is only a few bucks of copper in the cable. Cars often have expensive items inside.

These reasons for not providing charging outlets is indeed extremely lame. Wall outlets are indeed designed to be used. There is nothing "heavy duty" about EV use that would not be encountered by a tradesman plugging in power tools or a cleaning device that draws an equally high current. The cheapest grade of outlets are used in the home for 1.44 kW heaters that run unattended all day and night. If there was anything unsafe about them they would not be allowed in the market place.

As to the "faulty" equipment, my point was that there is virtually nothing in the cable that would be "faulty" as all the electronics is in the car. If they allow customers/clients/salespeople to plug in their phone chargers they are taking a greater risk since those have a high likelihood of being aftermarket junk that has no built in safety barrier and can catch fire or electrocute someone. This is well documented. I often see Airbnb rentals provide the little white cubes to charge phones and I wonder if they are any good and if it is worth the risk to my phone to use them.

It won't be much longer now that the presence of EVs becomes so common that charging is widely accommodated. This is much like Wifi. It used to be the exception that wifi was provided to patrons. Now it is the exception when it is not provided. By 2025 we will see enough of an EV presence that many facilities will support EV charging, mostly level 2 though. My concern is that level 1 is also needed when cars are parked for more than 24 hours.
 

Big Earl

bnkwupt
Supporting Member
Jul 12, 2017
6,347
12,305
Springfield, VA
So the only point you dispute is the temperature where a continuous charging connection is required? Where do you find info that says the car will not heat the battery if not plugged in? I'd like to read the entire text. A google search on that text did not find anything useful.

I didn’t read it anywhere. I’m speaking from several years of personal cold weather Tesla experience.
 
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Big Earl

bnkwupt
Supporting Member
Jul 12, 2017
6,347
12,305
Springfield, VA
My concern is that level 1 is also needed when cars are parked for more than 24 hours.
I appreciate your concern, but it’s unfounded. If EVs needed to be plugged in when parked for more than 24 hours, the internet would be flooded with posts and videos of people stranded at ski resorts, airports, in apartment complexes, etc.

There are a lot of Tesla owners who don’t have home charging and who leave their cars unplugged for extended periods of time.

Our second Model 3 (a mid-range battery) has been parked at home, unplugged, for 8 days over Thanksgiving week and has only lost 3%. I just checked it for the first time since we left, as the screenshots below show. Not sub-zero weather, but it’s been below freezing for a good chunk of that time.

7DB98EA5-C3A0-4519-B6BD-3BB0256ED66F.jpeg


813544AC-E3C7-403B-A5A2-91337B055B67.jpeg
 
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I appreciate your concern, but it’s unfounded. If EVs needed to be plugged in when parked for more than 24 hours, the internet would be flooded with posts and videos of people stranded at ski resorts, airports, in apartment complexes, etc.

There are a lot of Tesla owners who don’t have home charging and who leave their cars unplugged for extended periods of time.

Our second Model 3 (a mid-range battery) has been parked at home, unplugged, for 8 days over Thanksgiving week and has only lost 3%. I just checked it for the first time since we left, as the screenshots below show. Not sub-zero weather, but it’s been below freezing for a good chunk of that time.

View attachment 737959

View attachment 737958

Again, you don't seem to understand the nature of facts. The fact that your personal experience (at limited low temperatures) was positive does not say anything about what will happen at lower temps for other cars at other locations. Why do you not understand this important issue?
 
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