The green handle tied 100 amp breaker pair in the center is the main (back fed configuration)
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need help with running wire to a NEMA 14-50 outlet
- Thread starter tuoncan
- Start date
The green handle tied 100 amp breaker pair in the center is the main (back fed configuration)
mspohr
Well-Known Member
eprosenx
Active Member
Yeah, there are certainly some unexplained things here!
So the 100 amp breaker is the green one in the middle. That I believe is the feed in.
The question of how the neutral feeds in is a good one! Maybe it is the bare large solid copper wire on the right? Or maybe it comes in under the black holder just to the right of that large solid copper wire (under the 50a wires so we can't see it?)
There is only like one or two grounds in this panel! Maybe it is mostly an ungrounded system, OR it is in conduit / BX style cable so the grounds come into the box knockouts?
To your point, I don't see how the neutral bus and ground bus are attached. I think the left bus may have a strap tying it to the panel enclosure, but from this picture I can't tell if there is something tying left to right bus.
The more I look at this, yeah, this panel needs to go. It is a liability.
Sorry for bringing this thread back to life, however I have finally got a new 200a panel installed. The inspection is tomorrow but I still don't see a separate neutral and ground connectors on this new panel. When I add my new 14-50 outlet to this, do I connect the ground and neutral to the same bus bar?
Note: the green and 2 thick black wires are from the AC unit. The green wire is connected to the same bus bar as the white wires (assuming they are neutral?).
Note: the green and 2 thick black wires are from the AC unit. The green wire is connected to the same bus bar as the white wires (assuming they are neutral?).
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This is a service disconnect panel. Neutral and ground are the same thing at this point and both connect to the single bus bar.
If it were a subpanel , there would be a ground bus bar connected to the metal box and an isolated neutral bus bar.
Why not get the 14-50 installed before the inspection?
eprosenx
Active Member
Glad you got that panel replaced!
So some interesting things here:
As the above poster mentioned, since this is the main service entrance panel this is the one and only place that neutral and ground are bonded in the system. It is a critical aspect of the system. This panel I think has no option to *not* bond neutral and ground since it has the meter base integrated. They know at the factory that by definition it will be the service entrance. Regardless though, I think I see a dark colored (green?) screw through the neutral bus that penetrates the enclosure housing which provides the official bond. (though the bus is also not on insulated standoff’s from the enclosure which it would be if NOT bonding neutral to ground was an option).
Is that a new ground rod also? Or an old one? I assume off to the right it goes to a water pipe or natural gas pipe? I have not seen ground wires in an MC sheath before. I wonder if that is for protection? Or just aesthetics? Also odd that they used a fitting into the breaker panel with a grounding clamp on it (that the wire runs through). I wonder if that was just what they had laying around in the truck? Seems overkill (though maybe I just have not read enough of the NEC grounding requirements). Almost seems like that fitting is intended for non metallic electrical boxes since it has no teeth to scrape off the paint and bond to the box.
I find it disappointing that this electrical panel can only handle a single breaker over 70 amps and that it can only go in one position. Nice that your electrician left that position open for you.
I might consider installing a 50a breaker for a 14-50 *not* in that location. Maybe leave that location open for a future 100a HPWC or similar?
Also, don’t use the topmost position as you may need that some day for solar backfired.
The great news is that you now have TONS of available power if you wanted to do a HPWC instead of a 14-50 since you doubled your service capacity. The M3 LR can take up to 48a on a 60a (or higher up to 100a) breaker. If you run 6 gauge in conduit it will support a 60a breaker (this is how I did mine). Though to do it again I might have done 3 gauge in conduit and a 100a breaker for future proofing (but that is overkill for sure, just my labor was free and parts cost was similar).
eprosenx
Active Member
Question: I notice that one breaker in the old panel was 15a and now they are all 20a. Was your electrician able to determine that all wire was 12 gauge and hence allow that circuit to be upgraded from 15a to 20a? That is curious that someone would use a 15a breaker before when 20a would be suitable?
Also, any idea why the electrician put in an extra 20a breaker? Not an issue, but just rather curious. Are you planning to add a 20a receptacle or something right at the panel?
I also just noticed that where the dark colored screw is on the neutral/ground bus is where it penetrates through to behind the bus to a bus bar that travels under the main grounding attachment lug and then on over into the meter pan side where the utility neutral is hooked.
Looks like you also have a couple of multi-wire branch circuits that are now required to be on breakers with combined handle ties. Looks like your electrician did that right (also explains why there were so few neutral lines in the last panel).
So are most all your receptacles in the house ungrounded? Or is there some ground bar elsewhere out of this picture where a bunch of circuits all connect together? It is kind of crazy to only see three total ground lugs (plus a line to an external bus for low voltage utilities to land their grounding).
timk225
Active Member
You've got to get rid of that ancient Zinsco panel. Install a good Cutler Hammer CH type panel. Or at least a Cutler Hammer BR type, or Siemens or GE or Square D, if nothing else.
Then to go to 200 amps, you'll almost certainly need to replace your power meter base / box, and the service entry cable into the house.
Then you can put in a 14-50.
Then to go to 200 amps, you'll almost certainly need to replace your power meter base / box, and the service entry cable into the house.
Then you can put in a 14-50.
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