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Need my roadster geniuses / Please Help Logs/ 1.5 not charging or battery issue?

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The ESS SOC screen shows SOC MIN 48% MAX 97%; that is indicative of a massive imbalance.

The balancing screen shows 98 1's and only one zero; that indicates the car is trying to drain the voltage of 98 bricks down to the level of one single lowest brick.

The flash/ahr.log file shows the calculate SOC and voltage level of each brick. It is showing #67 at 31172, and the rest at 33xxx or 34xxx. Looking at the SOCs, #67 is at 585,837 while the rest are almost double that up in the million range.

Seen this enough times now to recognise it as the most common form of roadster ageing battery failure nowadays, even without diagnostics access to the ESS. Can even predict that each time you drive+charge cycle the car, it will charge to progressively lower level each time until you can't charge at all.

Tesla service centres have in the past done all three approaches (cut the brick, sell a sheet, and replace the battery), but it very much depends on what the service centre is willing to do for you and whether they have anyone trained up on roadster ESS work. Frankly, if you don't want to replace the battery, then either Medlock or Gruber would be a better approach.


The reason that balancing won't work is that you would need to drain something like 25kWh of energy from the high bricks in the pack, through tiny little bleed resistors. It would months, and even if you did manage to balance it down, and assuming #67 doesn't also drain to zero while you do that, there is no guarantee that #67 would be able to charge up afterwards anyway.

If you really want to try, you can just let it charge, and leave it on the charger for a couple of days to balance. Then check SOC MIN/MAX (or pull the logs) to see if there is any improvement.

There are other ways of doing it (isolating then opening up the pack access and directly charging the low brick), but those are nasty and dangerous (especially if one cell in the brick is resistive). One owner I know recently tried that and just made things worse by messing up his VMS - and after fixing that his car still ended up on a flatbed heading for some wire cutter work on his battery. I would suggest leaving that kind of work to Gruber/Medlock.

From my understanding, T is prioritising 3.0 packs for dead roasters (like yours), rather than pro-active replacements. No idea what the current queue length is - I think it largely depends on who and where you are.
@markwj GREAT info - thank you!!

I am looking at $4800 in shipping costs and likely less than $10k for sheet repair. = $14,000 for repair of my 2008 pack that was charging to 185 standard range.

Or waiting for a new 3.0 pack = $30k?

What are the odds of paying $14k and having this happen again?

Seems like a really tough call.
 
@markwj GREAT info - thank you!!

I am looking at $4800 in shipping costs and likely less than $10k for sheet repair. = $14,000 for repair of my 2008 pack that was charging to 185 standard range.

Or waiting for a new 3.0 pack = $30k?

What are the odds of paying $14k and having this happen again?

Seems like a really tough call.
Have you asked Carl to fly out and do the repair in the field? Did they quote you the 10k for sheet repair, or someone else quoted it?
 
The repair requires the ESS to be removed and disassembled, so its not a field repair without the right equipment. Still, it's only a one day job, so $10K is a bit high.
I have no idea whats involved so I shot from the hip with my message, but just wanted to make sure Matteni reaches out to the pro’s for the repair. With only 1 sheet it just seems excessive, but if a couple of the pros confirm, thats what it’s going to be.
 
What are the odds of paying $14k and having this happen again?
Given enough time, 100%. It is really a crapshoot. I have heard of cars that are 2+ years past the 'snip' of a brick cell, and still on the road driving fine. Others have had the same failure in a different brick a couple of months later.

The surgery itself is very simple. The problem is that getting access to the bricks/sheets requires dropping the pack, and working with 400+ volt systems. Once the surgery is complete, the bricks then need to be manually roughly balanced before putting the car back into service. Not really something that can be done in the average back yard garage.

But US$14k seems on the very high side for this. Are you sure you are not talking about sheet replacement for that price?

Long-term I don't see any other options for 10+ year old packs than a replacement. That said, there are new options for replacement coming up (2.0 refurbished, the latest 3.x Tesla program, and third parties in EU and CN that I know of working on the problem).
 
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Seems like a really tough call.
Just to make sure you understand the options (keeping the explanation as simple as I can, sacrificing some technical accuracy) I copy-and-paste here:
  • The roadster battery pack (aka ESS) consists of 6,831 individual cells (each around 4volts when fully charged). The cells look something like fat AA batteries. Google "18650" if you want to see them.

  • The cells are first glued together into groups of 69 cells in parallel (all lined up in the same direction and joined at the top and bottom) to form bricks. So each brick is still around 4volts, but now able to handle 69x the current of an individual cell (parallel grouping keeps the voltage the same but increases current capacity).

  • 9 bricks are then glued together in series (line up one after another, with heads connected to tails) to form sheets. Each sheet is thus around 36 volts (9 x 4V) when fully charged.

  • 11 sheets are bolted next to each other in series to form the ESS pack. Each pack is thus around 396 volts (11 x 36V) when fully charged.
The individual cells within each brick self-balance. They are all connected, so must be at roughly the same voltage. If one cell was at a lower voltage, it would draw power from it's neighbours, lowering their voltage and increasing its own.

Your problem is that you have one cell failing. That is most likely what we call 'resistive' in that its internal resistance has increased (caused by damage or chemical changes due to age) and it is now draining, giving off heat. That causes its voltage to lower, so it pulls power from its neighbouring cells in the same brick, and drags them down as well.

The best solution would be to simply replace the faulty cell. We would need one of roughly the same capacity as its neighbours in the same brick. But that is not feasible as they are all glued together. The next best solution would be to replace the brick, but again not feasible as they are all glued together into a sheet. The smallest easily replaceable component is a single sheet (replacing with one of roughly equivalent age and capacity). I have heard of people doing individual cell replacement, but it is not at all easy.

So the cheapest solution suggested is to first identify the single resistive cell (give the brick some power and see which cell gets hot), then snip (cut) the connector (a tiny wire) at the top/bottom of that single cell to disconnect it. The other 68 cells in the brick should then charge normally and not be pulled down by their faulty neighbour (now disconnected). There will be an impact (that brick will only be able to safely provide 68/69th the Amps that it used to), but that is about 1.5% difference with the other 68 cells sharing the increased burden, and not really significant.

You should able to see that the snip itself is simple. We already know the brick. So charge it, see what cell gets hot, and snip. The problem is getting into the pack itself. That involves isolating the high voltages, lifting the car, removing some rear components, draining coolant, safely lowering about 1,000lb of battery, and opening it up.

Hope that the above helps.
 
Tesla-Roadster%E2%80%99s-battery-pack.jpg

A sheet (left) and an ESS pack (right)
 
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