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Need new rotors @ 4k miles; Question re: 40-amp Range Plug

Discussion in 'Model S' started by Joelgjr, Jun 15, 2018.

  1. Joelgjr

    Joelgjr Member

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    Since picking up my new (inventory) MS100D, there was a chatter in the brakes that got more pronounced at higher speeds. It felt like the rotors needed to be resurfaced/replaced, but the car only had 4k miles on it. I continued to drive it and at 6k miles it only got worse, so I brought the car into service on a Monday.

    They texted me shortly after saying they were going to replace both front rotors and that they needed to order the parts. The parts did not come in until Thursday night which really surprised me - a Service Center doesn't keep rotors in stock? Car should be done today. Also - what is going on that I need new rotors at 4k miles? I'm used to getting at least 30k miles, even with city driving, out of pads/rotors. If this car was out of warranty and I need to get rotors every 4k miles I'll have to get rid of the car.

    There was also a rattle I asked them to look at.

    Electrical Question:
    I made plugs for all possible scenarios (10/30, 14/30, 14/50 etc.) because this is my only sedan. I cannot seem to understand what the "40-amp electric range" plug is. It's labeled as either a 3-prong or 4-prong (depending on existence of ground), and as 40-amps. However, the 3-prong plug appears to just be a NEMA 10-30, which is 30 amps, and the 4-prong appears to just be a NEMA 14-50, which is 50 amps.

    What is the electrical stove plug/receptacle referred to as 40-amp? The plugs look identical to 10/30 and 14/50. There doesn't appear to be any NEMA designation that is 40 amps. What am I missing?
     
  2. webbbcam

    webbbcam not-so-junior member

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    Heat from sustained or "panic" braking can cause rotors to warp. I suspect that as an inventory/demo car it was driven in an aggressive manner and the damage occurred then. Unless you drive with a very heavy foot on the brake pedal (or take it to the track) I doubt you will have any new problems.

    I think your confusion is that the NEMA 14-50 is rated for a peak load of 50 amps but only 40 amps continuous. A kitchen range or oven would be a continuous load and would require the higher rated circuit.

    John
     
  3. Joelgjr

    Joelgjr Member

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    Thanks for the responses re: rotors. Makes sense, except why didn't Tesla replace this during the inspection before it was sold to me? The reason I didn't have it looked at earlier was because they told me this is normal behavior for Tesla brakes because they are used so infrequently (with the regen braking), and they recommended a cleaning only. I had scheduled the car for the cleaning when they texted me they were replacing the rotors. Either way - glad its getting done. Would have preferred the rear rotors and all 4 pads as well. If this was a car with 20k miles coming off a lease I would have expected all of this - I'm just really surprised how much damage can be done to a new car in 3k miles.

    Your response on the NEMA 14-50 makes sense. However, the 3-prong electric stove plug is the same as a NEMA 10-30, but labeled as "40-amps". That's the mystery I'm not understanding.

    You can google both and both are labeled as 40-amp electric range plugs. 3-prong=NEMA 10-30 and 4-prong= NEMA 14-50
     
  4. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by you made plugs for all possible scenarios because this is your only sedan? Where do you expect to be plugging in other than at home? This is 2018, not 2013. It’s highly unlikely you will end up using any of them. When traveling in your long range EV you will be supercharging, or plugging into Tesla destination charging or J1772 at hotels. At worst you may plug into a 120V outlet with the UMC adapter that came with the car, or if it’s a 20A outlet with the 5-20 adapter you can buy. You’re not likely to find 240V outlets in the wild that you need a homemade adapter for, unless you’re making it for a specific use case that you haven’t told us about.
     
  5. Tech_Guy

    Tech_Guy ALWAYS IN LUDICROUS MODE! P90D>P100D Upgrade

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    More likely what your feeling is brake judder I made a large post on this in another thread I'm going to put here as well. If you read through this and properly Bed-In your new brakes you will not have this issue again. Also id guess if you went through these steps even with the existing rotors that the issue would go away as well...

    Quoting myself below


    Personally id guess your rotors are fine... In fact id suspect most Teslas are fine due to the lack of heavy use... What your feeling is brake judder due to a lack of proper bed-in procedure with a new brakes... Thats also why some people above are noting multiple replacements over time. Tesla doesn't mention anything about this in the manual so you didn't miss anything there. If you look online about how to properly bed-in your brakes you will find lots of info. Im going to copy and paste the important bits below from 2 websites on proper Bed-In Procedures.

    I’ve also highlighted in red the explanation as to why this occurs



    https://www.tirerack.com/brakes/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=85

    Brake Pad & Rotor Bed-In Procedures

    All brake pads must be bedded-in with the rotor they will be used against to maximize brake performance. The bedding-in process involves a gradual build up of heat in the rotors and pad compound. This process will lay down a thin layer of transfer film on to the rotor surface. Following the bed-in procedures provided by the manufacturer will assure a smooth, even layer of transfer film on the rotor and will minimize brake judder.


    Failure to follow these procedures may result in brake judder, excessive noise, or other difficulties in bedding-in the new brake pads. The pads need a fresh surface to lay down an even transfer film. Residue from the previous pad compound on the surface or an irregular surface on a used rotor will cause the pads to grip-slip-grip-slip as they pass over the rotor surface under pressure. The resulting vibration will cause noise and telegraph vibrations through the suspension and steering wheel. This vibration is known as brake judder or brake shimmy. This is typically caused by an uneven transfer film on the rotor surface or an uneven surface on the rotor not allowing that transfer film to develop evenly. This is often misdiagnosed as a warped rotor.


    Tesla uses brembo brakes heres the procedure to bed-in your brakes properly. Try this to fix your issue!

    BREMBO
    In a safe area, apply brakes moderately from 60mph to 30mph and then drive approximately 1/2 mile to allow the brakes to cool. Repeat this procedure approximately 30 times.





    And heres another article on the issue
    http://www.formuladynamics.com/brembobedin.php

    Brembo Bed-In Technique

    The bedding procedure is an important step with new rotors and pads.

    Correctly bedded pads form a transfer layer of material on the surface of the disc which improves overall "bite" and performance. Without proper "pre-bedding" that simulates the correct heat and torque loads seen in actual driving conditions, a pads true potential cannot be realized. This process will also ensure that the pads will produce a rotor finish with a consistent transfer layer which prevents "judder" from occurring.

    It is very important to follow proper brake bedding procedure following installation. This is necessary not only for optimum performance of the system, but also to avoid onset of judder (vibration felt through brake and steering).

    The discs are delivered with a thin zinc coating to prevent corrosion. Prior to beginning the bedding procedure, this plating must be removed from the braking surfaces by driving the car slowly (under 30mph) and performing very light brake applications in order to remove the plating without generating heat. With too much heat or pedal pressure, this plating can be deposited unevenly on the disc, and impregnated into the pad, further increasing the likelihood of judder development. Once a visual inspection of the braking surfaces confirms that the plating has been evenly removed, begin with the bedding procedure as specified below.

    Drive vehicle to a remote area and perform at least 30 brake applications of 3 second duration. Use light/ medium deceleration with varying starting speeds. Leave at least mile between each brake application. The purpose of this procedure is to gradually increase the temperature in the components without thermal shock, and to mate the brake pad and disc friction surfaces. After the repeated stops, drive the vehicle for several miles with little or no braking in order to adequately cool the components. The system is now ready for normal use

    NOTE: This entire procedure must be complete before driving the vehicle as normal. It is especially important that this process is completed before any extended same-speed driving is done (i.e. freeway travel). Failure to follow these instructions greatly increases the likelihood of judder development
     
  6. jelloslug

    jelloslug Active Member

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    I second this. When I had my Leaf in 2013, it was prudent to carry adapters, super heavy duty extension cords and whatever else you think you may need to charge. These days, I would not know it if someone swiped the included Mobile Connector from the trunk until the next time I was detailing the trunk well.
     
  7. Tech_Guy

    Tech_Guy ALWAYS IN LUDICROUS MODE! P90D>P100D Upgrade

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    I agree as well I never carry ANY adapters with me, I don't even have the mobile connector in my car!!

    Do you honestly plan to drive more then 200 - 300 miles in a day? Even if you do, you would be better off stopping at a supercharger so you can replenish that in 30 -45 minutes!
     
  8. webbbcam

    webbbcam not-so-junior member

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    ]
    I’m not understanding what you mean by a 40 amp 10-30. Perhaps this chart will help identify which outlets you mean.

    upload_2018-6-15_10-19-40.png
     
    • Informative x 1
  9. Joelgjr

    Joelgjr Member

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    Hey TexasEV - I really appreciate your reminder that it's currently 2018. Sometimes I forgot what year it is!! Silly me...

    I frequently rent cabins in Northern ME and Northern VT. While I can get to the cabin utilizing the supercharger network, there are no public chargers within a reasonable distance of these very remote cabins. Because I'm up there for weeks at a time, I need my car to drive around and get places while I'm up there. I can drive 20+ miles to the nearest J1772 Public Charger and pay for a round trip Uber ride, or I can plug into the dryer plug.
    And that leads me into your next question, "You’re not likely to find 240V outlets in the wild that you need a homemade adapter for, unless you’re making it for a specific use case that you haven’t told us about".
    You are incorrect. Every cabin I've stayed at to date has had at least a 240V dryer outlet, and most have 240V electric stove/range outlets.

    In regards to this point of yours, "It’s highly unlikely you will end up using any of them." You are again incorrect. If you please read my previous point, you will see that I prefer to use dryer plug instead of round trip ubering to a public charger that is 30+ minutes away from the cabin.
     
    • Informative x 1
  10. Joelgjr

    Joelgjr Member

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    Thanks so much for this - I will give it a try when I get my car back. My apologies that I didn't find this when searching.
     
  11. Joelgjr

    Joelgjr Member

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    Hello Jello. Please see my reply to TexasEV. I frequently spend weeks at a time in northern ME and northern VT in remote cabins. We are talking in the wilderness by the border with Canada. There are no public charging stations anywhere near there. I have three options: 20a 120v, but since I need to use the car the entire time, not just to get back, this doesn't supply enough power. Second option: dryer plug / stove plug. Third option: 1 hour round trip Uber ride to the nearest Public J1772.

    Why is everyone attacking me because I want to charge my car on 240v in the cabin. What am I missing.
     
  12. Joelgjr

    Joelgjr Member

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    Electric stoves utilize a 40-amp circuit. There is a 3-prong electric stove plug/receptacle, and a 4-prong electric stove plug / receptacle. Both are labeled as 40-amps, the only difference being the presence of absence of a ground.
    However, if you look at the actual plugs that are on electric stoves that are utilizing 40-amp electric stove circuits, they are using either a 10-30plug or a 14-50 plug, but are labeled not as NEMA 10-30 or NEMA 14-50, they are labeled as "Electric Range 40-amp plug 3-prong.

    Here are some links: 40-amp 3 prong electric stove: https://www.amazon.com/General-Electric-WX09X10006-Wire-4-Feet/dp/B00FI6U0GU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1529084638&sr=8-2&keywords=40amp+electric+range

    40-amp 4 prong electric stove: https://www.amazon.com/General-Electric-WX9X35-4-wire-4-foot/dp/B004LYLP7I/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1529084661&sr=8-4&keywords=40amp+electric+range

    However, if you look at the photograph associated with both listings, they are not some unique 40amp plug. It's just a 10-30 and a 14-50.
     
  13. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

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    So you do have a specific use case—staying at a remote cabin for weeks at a time. This is different than the typical new owner who thinks he should have all kind of adapters based on stuff he read from five years ago. Apologies if I offended you, but I think the point is important to the mass market that’s now buying Teslas.
     
  14. Tech_Guy

    Tech_Guy ALWAYS IN LUDICROUS MODE! P90D>P100D Upgrade

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    No worries, Happy to help!!
    Honestly this info should be in the owners manual.
     
  15. CUBldr97

    CUBldr97 Member

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    You can definitely make your adapters, or visit this site. https://www.evseadapters.com/

    I carry a small range of adapters, due to traveling to inlaws and other places where they don't have chargers or SC's nearby... worst case scenario is the dreaded 115 15amp...
     
  16. jelloslug

    jelloslug Active Member

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    Nobody is attacking you. It's common for people to still think they need a trunk full of charging equipment to go across town.
     
  17. webbbcam

    webbbcam not-so-junior member

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    The first link for the 40amp range cord on amazon is not a NEMA 10-30 which has an angled neutral. The link shows a 50 amp plug (40 amp continuous) which is a NEMA 10-50. I believe that the 10-50 is not put in new construction for ovens and ranges because of the lack of a ground.
    Your second link is a 14-50 which, likewise, can be used for a max continuous load of 40 amp.

    John
     
    • Informative x 1
  18. NickFie

    NickFie Member

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    I agree about adapter value. During my 10-day, 1,800 mile Memorial Day trip around New England I used:

    - Old-style dryer plug adapter and 50-foot welder’s extension cord with 6-50 adapter for Mobile Charger. Wife’s family vacation home, no agreement yet to install EV Charger.

    - J-1772 adapter. Parking garage in Cambridge, MA. Fortunately dinner ran long, got a good charge. Later, company garage in Connecticut while I worked at the site. 12 chargers, was like visiting an EV shopping mall.

    - 5-15 adapter. Stayed with a friend, that was all he could offer. Fortunately, arrived with good charge level, left his house at 90% after 2 days.

    - 14-30 adapter. Stayed with a friend in Eastern Connecticut. He was eager to install an outlet so we could charge the Tesla the two nights I stayed there. I brought the outlet, box, cover and 6/3 cable. He provided the double 30-amp breaker.

    - ChaDeMo adapter. While visiting my Tesla-owning friend near Mt. Washington, NH we decided to exercise a recently-installed ChaDeMo/CCS Charger at a nearby campground. Wanted to test my adapter before relying on it in a do-or-die situation.

    - 6-20 adapter. Don’t have one, thus couldn’t add charge while having lunch with a friend near Brattleboro, VT. The outlet was installed in the garage for wood-working equipment.
     
  19. Reddy Kilowatt

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    FYI I need the adapters when I travel to lake houses in NY. there is nothing nearby. I used to use one when I had a volt at my mom's house so i wouldn't have to use gas.

    If you look close at each type of plug configuration there is the suttliest difference between each type. One will have an L shaped ground 30A vs straight blade on 50A. or the blades reverse large and small between amperages. Found that out on a 30A dryer vs 50A welding outlets. they look the same but there not.

    Ranges and dryers changed at some point in the 80's adding the 4th wire for a separate neutral and ground for stoves and dryers.

    Nema likes to create confusion on the types of plugs. it was good for chart sales and job security. ;)
     
  20. tpham07

    tpham07 Active Member

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    A lot of electric ranges use the NEMA 14-50 outlet but plugged into a 40 amp circuit breaker. The reason they do this is because there is no outlet out there that is rated for 40A. That's why the NEMA 14-50 is called a range outlet.

    Despite what some so-called experts might tell you, that is perfectly within code. And electric ranges are never going to draw more than 30 amps anyways.
     
    • Informative x 1

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