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I stand by what I wrote, having gotten these credits four times in the last ten years. The key is that "owed at the end of the year" has absolutely nothing to do with whether you need to write a check to the IRS in April. The credit does not care what you owe. It cares whether, once you are otherwise all squared up with the IRS, you have EVER in that squaring up process paid ANY MONEY to the IRS, either as payroll deduction, backup withholding, withholding from investment redemptions, estimated taxes, etc. if you have, you get the money back, up to a maximum of $7500. It does not matter whether you are getting a refund or are reducing the amount of a tax check that you are writing.

Hmmm, I'm no financial expert, but the ones I've spoken with as well as the other owners whom have utilized these credits and incentives would not agree with you. Your end of the year owing statement is also strange. Withholdings are for your taxable income, or else there wouldn't be a bracket issue or classes. If you owe a certain amount, you owe a certain amount. Deductions and such of course help, but either way you will still have a tax obligation. How people tend to go about it is different.

Now you're saying that the federal credit and state incentive is all fully payable to the person post tax filing if they broke even. So if I've paid all of my obligation throughout the year and it turns out I now owe $0.00, I will be getting $13,500.00 in the form of two checks, one from federal and one from my state. I'm confident this is not correct. If you ARE correct, then I'll be one happy person if that's my case.

Owing at the end of the year basically means you haven't paid your full obligation through the year. People who pay at the end of the year probably don't get enough withheld or have a status change. Those that get money back are on average either in low income brackets or have a lot of tax breaks like a 401K, HSA and so on. I think you got the federal back because you may have over paid your obligation which is also another situation.
 
Hmmm, I'm no financial expert, but the ones I've spoken with as well as the other owners whom have utilized these credits and incentives would not agree with you. Your end of the year owing statement is also strange. Withholdings are for your taxable income, or else there wouldn't be a bracket issue or classes. If you owe a certain amount, you owe a certain amount. Deductions and such of course help, but either way you will still have a tax obligation. How people tend to go about it is different.

Now you're saying that the federal credit and state incentive is all fully payable to the person post tax filing if they broke even. So if I've paid all of my obligation throughout the year and it turns out I now owe $0.00, I will be getting $13,500.00 in the form of two checks, one from federal and one from my state. I'm confident this is not correct. If you ARE correct, then I'll be one happy person if that's my case.

Owing at the end of the year basically means you haven't paid your full obligation through the year. People who pay at the end of the year probably don't get enough withheld or have a status change. Those that get money back are on average either in low income brackets or have a lot of tax breaks like a 401K, HSA and so on. I think you got the federal back because you may have over paid your obligation which is also another situation.
@Hengist is absolutely correct. Taxes, at a super high level, work like this:

(Gross income - deductions) * tax rate = tax liability
Tax liability - credits - payments = Amount owed/refunded in April

The EV credit is a non-refundable credit. This means that it cannot reduce tax owed below zero. But this is still before any payments you have made (payroll with holdings and estimated tax payments). Perhaps this is where your confusion lies.

Some credits are refundable, and some can be rolled over to subsequent years if you don't have enough tax liability in a certain year. In my particular case, last year I had ~$9,000 refund, with about $8,000 of it being specifically the renewable energy (residential solar) credit. That credit is not refundable, but can be carried forward (I didn't need to carry any of it forward). I still got it all, even though I was already due a refund. They basically refunded all of my withheld payroll tax, because I had paid that much in to cover that much of a refund.

The EV credit is both non-refundable, and cannot be carried forward. So if you can't claim it all in one year, you lose it.
 
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Hmmm, I'm no financial expert, but the ones I've spoken with as well as the other owners whom have utilized these credits and incentives would not agree with you. Your end of the year owing statement is also strange. Withholdings are for your taxable income, or else there wouldn't be a bracket issue or classes. If you owe a certain amount, you owe a certain amount. Deductions and such of course help, but either way you will still have a tax obligation. How people tend to go about it is different.

Now you're saying that the federal credit and state incentive is all fully payable to the person post tax filing if they broke even. So if I've paid all of my obligation throughout the year and it turns out I now owe $0.00, I will be getting $13,500.00 in the form of two checks, one from federal and one from my state. I'm confident this is not correct. If you ARE correct, then I'll be one happy person if that's my case.

Owing at the end of the year basically means you haven't paid your full obligation through the year. People who pay at the end of the year probably don't get enough withheld or have a status change. Those that get money back are on average either in low income brackets or have a lot of tax breaks like a 401K, HSA and so on. I think you got the federal back because you may have over paid your obligation which is also another situation.

You get a check from the government in that situation. Be happy. Ccuter explains it well and correctly.

There is no such thing as breaking even on taxes btw. You pay the same if taxable income less deductions is the same regardless of amount of estimated paid or amount of withholding. Amount you pay has nothing to do with whether or not you owe a check on April 15.
 
Another way to think about withholdings (if you're confused) is it's a pre-payment of taxes to the government, with the tax return being the reconciliation or true-up of the amount you actually owe versus what you prepaid during the year via payroll withholdings. It's perfectly legal and good financial sense to estimate and calculate your withholdings during the year to end up with zero tax due with your return. There's lots of calculators out there that will do this for you and include the proper adjustments for any tax credits that you may be entitled to and expect to claim when you file the return. The IRS even has one on their site here.

I'm always amazed at people that are so excited to get a big refund when they file their return. They just gave the federal and state government an interest-free loan of their money for the year. I'd actually prefer to write a small check when I file the return.
 
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It's funny because while it seems like we're saying something different, it's the same. It's just being explained at different time points. Tax obligation is obligation. The credit goes towards just that. Saying it doesn't change if you need to write a check out is wrong. If you at the end of the year post filing needing to pay $1,000.00 before utilizing the credit, it'll be deducted and poof, no check. This is what I mean. The incentives/credits being the LAST factor. Consider it first and your situation holds true. At the end of it all it is what it is, one is non refundable the other is depending on state. Now it just comes down to using it.
 
It's funny because while it seems like we're saying something different, it's the same. It's just being explained at different time points. Tax obligation is obligation. The credit goes towards just that. Saying it doesn't change if you need to write a check out is wrong. If you at the end of the year post filing needing to pay $1,000.00 before utilizing the credit, it'll be deducted and poof, no check. This is what I mean. The incentives/credits being the LAST factor. Consider it first and your situation holds true. At the end of it all it is what it is, one is non refundable the other is depending on state. Now it just comes down to using it.
I'm still not sure if you understand or not. So let's go through some examples. Please note these numbers are completely arbitrary, and are simply used to illustrate the mechanics of the credit.

So, let's say you make $100,000 during the year. In scenario A, you don't have any withholding during the year. Your marginal tax rate somehow comes out to be 25%. In April of the following year, you have to write the IRS a check for $25,000 (actually, it would be more, cause the IRS gets mad and charges penalties if you owe too much at the end of the year... except, except, except...). If you had purchased a Tesla in that year, you would be eligible for the $7,500 credit, so you would only owe the IRS $17,500.

Now for the scenario you seem to be confused on. You made the same amount of money, but this time, you had $1000 withheld from every bi-monthly paycheck. Come April, with no EV tax credit, you would owe the IRS an additional $1000. If you had bought a Tesla in that year, you would still be eligible for a $7,500 tax credit ($7,500 is less than your total tax liability of $25,000). So you would get a refund check for $6,500, instead of owing $1,000.

For the "non-refundable" part to kick in, your tax liability would have to be less. Say you made $100,000, but $80,000 of it was from a tax-free Roth IRA. Your AGI would be $20,000 (not really, due to exemptions and such, but this is where I'm simplifying), and if you somehow had the same 25% marginal tax rate, your tax due (assuming nothing withheld during the year) would be $5,000. With the $7,500 tax credit, it would reduce your tax due to $0, and you would owe nothing, but you also wouldn't be able to get a "refund" beyond how much ($0) you paid in. Given the same scenario, and you were a responsible individual that had made estimated tax payments of $5,000 throughout the year, your tax due in April (without the EV credit) would be $0. With the EV credit, you would be due a $5,000 refund - the amount that you had paid in, and not more.

To address your specific quote of "incentives/credits being the LAST factor" is your error. Credits are a higher priority than your own payments. Regardless of temporal order (estimated tax payments and payroll withholdings happen earlier in time than claiming the tax credit), you still get to benefit from the tax credit, even if you're due a refund already.

Also remember that there are as many tax situations as there are people in the US. Just cause your friend was not able to claim the credit, even though they apparently make a lot of money, doesn't mean that you won't be able to (or vice versa). It really depends on how you make your money. The tax code is a super complex beast, with a million different credits, exemptions, and deductions, which all work a little differently (not to mention AMT, NIT, and any other way the government can come up with to still get their money).
 
Is there a way to change the title of this post/discussion? I think the information regarding tax liability is valuable and I'm sure others would find it useful as well, but may not know to look for it within this discussion. Sorry to whomever started this, as it has spun off into a tax benefits discussion. :)
 
Is there a way to change the title of this post/discussion? I think the information regarding tax liability is valuable and I'm sure others would find it useful as well, but may not know to look for it within this discussion. Sorry to whomever started this, as it has spun off into a tax benefits discussion. :)
A mod should be able to move the tax posts over to a different topic, leaving the original thread with a useful title.
 
I'm still not sure if you understand or not. So let's go through some examples. Please note these numbers are completely arbitrary, and are simply used to illustrate the mechanics of the credit.

So, let's say you make $100,000 during the year. In scenario A, you don't have any withholding during the year. Your marginal tax rate somehow comes out to be 25%. In April of the following year, you have to write the IRS a check for $25,000 (actually, it would be more, cause the IRS gets mad and charges penalties if you owe too much at the end of the year... except, except, except...). If you had purchased a Tesla in that year, you would be eligible for the $7,500 credit, so you would only owe the IRS $17,500.

Now for the scenario you seem to be confused on. You made the same amount of money, but this time, you had $1000 withheld from every bi-monthly paycheck. Come April, with no EV tax credit, you would owe the IRS an additional $1000. If you had bought a Tesla in that year, you would still be eligible for a $7,500 tax credit ($7,500 is less than your total tax liability of $25,000). So you would get a refund check for $6,500, instead of owing $1,000.

For the "non-refundable" part to kick in, your tax liability would have to be less. Say you made $100,000, but $80,000 of it was from a tax-free Roth IRA. Your AGI would be $20,000 (not really, due to exemptions and such, but this is where I'm simplifying), and if you somehow had the same 25% marginal tax rate, your tax due (assuming nothing withheld during the year) would be $5,000. With the $7,500 tax credit, it would reduce your tax due to $0, and you would owe nothing, but you also wouldn't be able to get a "refund" beyond how much ($0) you paid in. Given the same scenario, and you were a responsible individual that had made estimated tax payments of $5,000 throughout the year, your tax due in April (without the EV credit) would be $0. With the EV credit, you would be due a $5,000 refund - the amount that you had paid in, and not more.

To address your specific quote of "incentives/credits being the LAST factor" is your error. Credits are a higher priority than your own payments. Regardless of temporal order (estimated tax payments and payroll withholdings happen earlier in time than claiming the tax credit), you still get to benefit from the tax credit, even if you're due a refund already.

Also remember that there are as many tax situations as there are people in the US. Just cause your friend was not able to claim the credit, even though they apparently make a lot of money, doesn't mean that you won't be able to (or vice versa). It really depends on how you make your money. The tax code is a super complex beast, with a million different credits, exemptions, and deductions, which all work a little differently (not to mention AMT, NIT, and any other way the government can come up with to still get their money).

Well that helps a lot. I understand your examples, what's new to me is that in a specific situation the credit/incentive can be refunded. I only spoke with a couple of people here in Colorado so it's not a large pool, but they all told me for them the federal reduced what they owed and if they had anything left it went away. The state left over amount was refunded to them if there was some left over also.

So basically, the federal and state incentive/credit can be refunded to you depending on situation. Well here's to me hoping I get it all!
 
Well that helps a lot. I understand your examples, what's new to me is that in a specific situation the credit/incentive can be refunded. I only spoke with a couple of people here in Colorado so it's not a large pool, but they all told me for them the federal reduced what they owed and if they had anything left it went away. The state left over amount was refunded to them if there was some left over also.

So basically, the federal and state incentive/credit can be refunded to you depending on situation. Well here's to me hoping I get it all!
It's refundable with respect to payments you have already made. It is not refundable with respect to actual tax liability. I wonder if the people you had spoken to had even made tax payments to that point (withholdings, or estimated tax payments). Anyhow, good luck getting the best tax incentive you can!