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NEMA 14-50 vs 14-30?
- Thread starter sandeepv
- Start date
MaskedRacerX
Member
The N14-50 if your power setup will support it, is definitely better. It's 50a, which means charging at 40a, and getting 36/37 miles/hour in a TM3, vs. an N14-30, which will charge at 24a, ~22 mile/hour.
FYI, the N14-30 is the more modern "dryer" outlet spec you'll find in many homes. I use an N14-30 adapter with my TMC, in the dryer outlet, when we go down to the BIL's place since he doesn't have a dedicated high power outlet installed.
FYI, the N14-30 is the more modern "dryer" outlet spec you'll find in many homes. I use an N14-30 adapter with my TMC, in the dryer outlet, when we go down to the BIL's place since he doesn't have a dedicated high power outlet installed.
30A will only get you 24A to the car (80% of peak throughput, to reduce risk of overheating cabling). 50A will likely get you up to 32A (maximum for the car).
If you have both adapters there's likely not a lot else that matters. 50A might be a little more to install based on hardware. Personally I'd go with the 50A just for the extra punch in charging rate. Either one will probably always get you a full charge overnight. If you drive a WHOLE LOT you might be more comfortable with 50A. If you drive a WHOLE WHOLE lot you'll be hitting Superchargers anyway.
If you have both adapters there's likely not a lot else that matters. 50A might be a little more to install based on hardware. Personally I'd go with the 50A just for the extra punch in charging rate. Either one will probably always get you a full charge overnight. If you drive a WHOLE LOT you might be more comfortable with 50A. If you drive a WHOLE WHOLE lot you'll be hitting Superchargers anyway.
Jeremy3292
Active Member
I have long argued against new installs of 14-50 outlets and think the Tesla wall connector is a much better choice for lots of reasons.
The 14-30/50 outlets are for people who have a hookup in their garage already as it then becomes cost effective. A lot of people who had Tesla's from the beginning opted for a 14-50 outlet bc the Tesla Wall Connector was ~$1,500 at the time and it made more sense due to the cost. Additionally, the older cars could also charge at 40 amps via a 14-50 outlet instead of the lower 32 amps on today's cars.
If you went the 14-50 route you would need an industrial grade, high quality (Hubbell) 14-50 outlet which is $100 plus the $45 adapter and now your mobile connector is in use and can't be kept in your car for road trips. You also may need an expensive GFCI breaker per NEC code depending on your state. There are also a lot of reports on here of issues over the long term with 14-50 outlets (using poor quality outlets, poor electrical work, causing fire, etc). There’s a master thread on it here: Click Here
But again IMO the answer is the Tesla Wall Connector as in the end it is the safest (hard wired), easiest (no new adapters, plugs, or GFCI breaker needed), most hassle free option (mobile connector stays in trunk) and the cost difference is negligible. I see no reason for anyone to pay to have a new 14-50 outlet installed these days (already having one in the garage is a different story). The Tesla Wall Connector also has a 4 year warranty.
Just my 2 cents
The 14-30/50 outlets are for people who have a hookup in their garage already as it then becomes cost effective. A lot of people who had Tesla's from the beginning opted for a 14-50 outlet bc the Tesla Wall Connector was ~$1,500 at the time and it made more sense due to the cost. Additionally, the older cars could also charge at 40 amps via a 14-50 outlet instead of the lower 32 amps on today's cars.
If you went the 14-50 route you would need an industrial grade, high quality (Hubbell) 14-50 outlet which is $100 plus the $45 adapter and now your mobile connector is in use and can't be kept in your car for road trips. You also may need an expensive GFCI breaker per NEC code depending on your state. There are also a lot of reports on here of issues over the long term with 14-50 outlets (using poor quality outlets, poor electrical work, causing fire, etc). There’s a master thread on it here: Click Here
But again IMO the answer is the Tesla Wall Connector as in the end it is the safest (hard wired), easiest (no new adapters, plugs, or GFCI breaker needed), most hassle free option (mobile connector stays in trunk) and the cost difference is negligible. I see no reason for anyone to pay to have a new 14-50 outlet installed these days (already having one in the garage is a different story). The Tesla Wall Connector also has a 4 year warranty.
Just my 2 cents
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I would suggest a 6-20 outlet for each car in the garage with a 16A Duosida J1772 charger for each. I've been using this setup for 3 years with no regrets. Get a wall mounted hose rack for storage.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
It's actually just $46 for the Bryant outlet which is almost identical to the Hubbell. The GFCI breaker is expensive if your panel doesn't allow mixing and matching brands, but I found a way around it (hint: look for panels that include a GFCI breaker in it already, and look for local electrician supply stores, won't say more to avoid giving too much ideas to scalpers).
The rest of the other parts you would need for the Wall connector install anyways, so you still save about $300-350 after spending about $200-250 (before tax) for 14-50 specific things.
Also some local codes require treating the wall connector as a 60A device even if you dial it down (they don't recognize software toggles) which can drastically increase your downstream install costs (60A breakers and the wiring to go with it).
The other negative of wall connector is that it only works for Teslas (other than using a third party adapter that may not be UL listed), 14-50 is more flexible.
As for flexibility, I did consider needing a spare connector to keep in the car, but after using my Tesla for a while there really was no scenario that it would have been useful in regular use. For longer trips, I can easily unplug the mobile connector and take with me, and having the 14-50 adapter just gives me more options in that scenario (I also got a 10-30 and 10-30 to 14-30 adapter for dryer use).
FYI: The 32A limit is for the SR+ only, while the LR and P support up to 48A.
How many Amps are right for you depends on:
* How much you drive (and if you can't wait for lower amp charging)?
* Do you need to worry about very cold climate (not Austin)?
* Small improvement in charging efficiency (cars awake for shorter time)?
* How much you want to spend vs what's already available near your parking spot (and capacity in electrical panel)?
How many Amps are right for you depends on:
* How much you drive (and if you can't wait for lower amp charging)?
* Do you need to worry about very cold climate (not Austin)?
* Small improvement in charging efficiency (cars awake for shorter time)?
* How much you want to spend vs what's already available near your parking spot (and capacity in electrical panel)?
Lots of great advice. I have a simple rule of thumb; take in account of my current needs but plan for the future. In you case I would definitely go for the 50 amp service. I have both a Nema 14-50 and the Tesla wall charger. Guess which one I use the most?
I had been living on a 14-50 when we first got our Y. We moved and that is when I added 2 circuits to cover another Tesla. When I had a chance to compare back to back, I almost always use the wall charger now unless I need to charge both at the same time. For the 3 it was easy to figure the miles of range added per hour. Basically whatever your continuously rated amperage (when on 220V) is very close to the miles per hour of range added. Close enough so that you don't have to do any math (but actually 90% would be even closer).
The faster charging is a big plus if my wife forgot to plug the car in and we need to leave fairly soon. The wall charger has about 50% more miles of range per hour.
I had been living on a 14-50 when we first got our Y. We moved and that is when I added 2 circuits to cover another Tesla. When I had a chance to compare back to back, I almost always use the wall charger now unless I need to charge both at the same time. For the 3 it was easy to figure the miles of range added per hour. Basically whatever your continuously rated amperage (when on 220V) is very close to the miles per hour of range added. Close enough so that you don't have to do any math (but actually 90% would be even closer).
The faster charging is a big plus if my wife forgot to plug the car in and we need to leave fairly soon. The wall charger has about 50% more miles of range per hour.
JimShaw
Member
I installed a 14-50 2 1/2 years ago. Had a neighbor walk over to double check my installation (He was a So. Calif. Edison manager). I then paid the city to come over and approve the installation. I don't need fast charging. The 14-50 works perfectly for my needs.
Your post gave me some concern. So, this Thursday, I have an electrician (Tesla approved) stopping by to look at my system and give me an estimate to install Tesla's Wall Connector and I'll ask him if my set up is safe.
Don't want to wake up one evening to discover the house is burning down around me.
Jeremy3292
Active Member
Generally speaking the mobile connector would sense an issue and turn off before an actual fire started, but your outlet can definitely get burnt up first. If you look at that 14-50 master thread you’ll see a lot of cheap, burnt outlets so better safe than sorry.
The repeated use for charging and plugging and unplugging will definitely wear the outlet over time. Since you’ve had yours for 2 1/2 years, it’s definitely worth having it looked at. You can also simply swap your old outlet with a new high quality 14-50 outlet for $45 instead of installing a Tesla wall connector (link below). That would be much easier and cheaper and would extend your useful life for a lot longer. I’m not sure the quality of the outlet you currently have.
Like I said it definitely made a lot of sense to install a 14–50 outlet back in the day when the Tesla wall connector was so expensive and the 14–50 could charge at 40 amps. I would’ve done the same then but now I just don’t see the economy of it personally. I also have no plans to ever buy another electric vehicle except a new Tesla.
Bryant 14-50 for $45.88
IMHO:
The best approach to a new install is a Wall Connector, supplied with AWG 6 (or maybe AWG 4, depending on how you're installing) wiring with a 60A breaker.
The middle ground is either a 14-30 or 14-50, supplied with AWG 6 or AWG 8 (depending on how you're installing) wiring with a 30A or 50A GFCI breaker (as appropriate). Either one will fully charge your car overnight.
The low end is a 6-20 supplied with AWG 12 wiring, with a 20A GFCI breaker. This will most likely be plenty for your needs, but won't fully charge the car overnight - it'll take about 20 hours for a full charge. But it'll be about the cheapest to install.
Below that is just using a standard 120V/15A outlet (NEMA 5-15). If your usage is small every day, it could work out fine - ten hours of charging will get you about 50 miles of range.
The National Electrical Code requires a GFCI for EV charging outlets; I don't know the current state of things, but you used to be able to cheat and say that the new outlet was for a welder, or machine tool, that you were planning on buying - those didn't need GFCI outlets. I think I remember someone saying that loophole had closed, and all new garage outlets needed GFCI's, but don't quote me on that. A GFCI is about $100-$150. If you live somewhere that a permit and inspection is required for a new 240V outlet, then I'd really do the cost analysis trading off a Wall Connector vs. the mobile connector.
If your garage is a long way from your electrical panel, your biggest cost is going to be the wire. Using AWG 4 is going to cost a LOT more than AWG 12. If, like mine, the electrical panel is in the garage, then the cost of wire is not important.
Don't overthink it too much; there's a really good chance that you won't need nearly as much charging capability as you think.
The best approach to a new install is a Wall Connector, supplied with AWG 6 (or maybe AWG 4, depending on how you're installing) wiring with a 60A breaker.
The middle ground is either a 14-30 or 14-50, supplied with AWG 6 or AWG 8 (depending on how you're installing) wiring with a 30A or 50A GFCI breaker (as appropriate). Either one will fully charge your car overnight.
The low end is a 6-20 supplied with AWG 12 wiring, with a 20A GFCI breaker. This will most likely be plenty for your needs, but won't fully charge the car overnight - it'll take about 20 hours for a full charge. But it'll be about the cheapest to install.
Below that is just using a standard 120V/15A outlet (NEMA 5-15). If your usage is small every day, it could work out fine - ten hours of charging will get you about 50 miles of range.
The National Electrical Code requires a GFCI for EV charging outlets; I don't know the current state of things, but you used to be able to cheat and say that the new outlet was for a welder, or machine tool, that you were planning on buying - those didn't need GFCI outlets. I think I remember someone saying that loophole had closed, and all new garage outlets needed GFCI's, but don't quote me on that. A GFCI is about $100-$150. If you live somewhere that a permit and inspection is required for a new 240V outlet, then I'd really do the cost analysis trading off a Wall Connector vs. the mobile connector.
If your garage is a long way from your electrical panel, your biggest cost is going to be the wire. Using AWG 4 is going to cost a LOT more than AWG 12. If, like mine, the electrical panel is in the garage, then the cost of wire is not important.
Don't overthink it too much; there's a really good chance that you won't need nearly as much charging capability as you think.
JimShaw
Member
My 14-50 was a Home Depot product. I never unplug the Tesla cable from the 14-50 so It shouldn't wear out.
I will do both: Look into a high-end 14-50 and the cost to install the Tesla Wall Connector. I will always have a Tesla. I'm on my second Tesla right now which is 3 months old.
Jeremy3292
Active Member
Yes, the Bryant outlet is definitely a good choice.
Why would you replace or simply buy an entire new panel? That would be less economical not more.
We can quibble about whether it’s $100, $200, or $300 cheaper but the difference is immaterial for a a safer, higher powered connector with a 4 year warranty, especially when you are spending $50,000 on a new car anyways (IMO).
Yes, I am aware of this but I don’t see it as an issue. You should always install for maximum power. I have mine set up on a 60 amp breaker. If your panel cannot support a 60 amp breaker for the Tesla wall connector, than it is very likely it cannot support a 50 amp breaker for a 14–50 outlet anyways.
I agree it is subjective based on the end-user but not having the mobile connector in the car and readily available at all times if needed was also a nonstarter for me. I also have no plans to ever buy an electric vehicle that’s not a Tesla so again, that is subjective based on the end-user.
I have no issues with anyone wanting to install a new 14–50 outlet as that is his/her own choice. However, from what I’ve seen on this forum repeatedly is that a lot of new Tesla owners just assume or read something that says a 14-50 is the only choice or the best choice and that a Tesla wall connector is ”dumb and overpriced“ without having all the facts. There’s a lot to unpack on the topic which is why threads like this exist
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Jeremy3292
Active Member
If it is one of those $10 Leviton’s from Home Depot I would definitely change that ASAP. Those are quite possibly the worst outlet that was ever made and those are the ones that consistently burn up. See the thread below for more pictures and information:
Master Thread: Definitive 14-50 NEMA Outlet Guide
Comparing the 2 outlets recommended by Tesla with the sub $10 big box model as well as the one I think you should buy 1. Hubbell 9450a 2. Bryant 9450fr 3. Cooper 5754n 4. Leviton 279-S00 The Hubbell and Bryant are far and away the superior product here and since Hubbell owns Bryant and these...
teslamotorsclub.com
MaskedRacerX
Member
If you have some kind of use case, where you need to unplug/plug a charger very frequently, like you take it with you to work 5 days a week sure, you probably need to consider a second charger.
But for the occasional removal, a few times a __year__, like for the occasional road trip, it's fine.
I still prefer it, and we have a second charger in addition to the TMC (it's a 40a, J1772 that we use on our TM3 and a Jeep 4xe), because I like the idea of have an instant backup if it fails (in particular for the Tesla).
In fact, we had an issue where the portal (it's a smart variant) was sending a shutdown signal, but in 30 seconds I had a 32a backup ready for the Tesla. If it would've needed warranty repair, I could easily swap it back after the replacement was returned without having to deal with wiring, just hang it up, plug it in, and had decent speed charging in the interim, for the Tesla.
I get that my particular case introduces a non-Tesla EV, but I would've done this even with just a Tesla.
JimShaw
Member
Took a look at a Bryant Electric 9450FR 50 Amp Nema 14-50R flush straight blade receptacle on Amazon. Costs between $113-$120.
Jeremy3292
Active Member
MaskedRacerX
Member
Oh, kind of off topic, but FWIW, our 50a circuit is wired to an N6-50 outlet (vs. a N14-50).
Oh and @Jeremy3292 (and a few others), it was your information in that other thread that had me review the install, the parts used, etc., just wanted to say thanks for that.
Oh and @Jeremy3292 (and a few others), it was your information in that other thread that had me review the install, the parts used, etc., just wanted to say thanks for that.
JimShaw
Member
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