Nema outlets instead of charging stations?

[JetFalcon]

For areas around the USA and countries with little EV support, would it make sense to install a bunch of Nema outlets for EV owners to plug their cars into? It probably could be cheaper than trying to install a bunch of Level 2 chargers. And maybe you can install like 50-100 of them for the same cost as one L2 charging station. Then shopping centers can have plentiful charging options for EV owners instead of like 2-4 charging station that are always taken up at shopping centers. Pretty sure they could have over 20 charging spots if they just installed outlets for less than the cost of one Volta charging station. And maybe over 50% of the spots at a shopping center can have a random plug somewhere so no one needs to enforce if gas or EVs can park there.

You can install them on the ground or inside walls of parking garages.

People just need to bring their own cord and that's it. Or for Teslas, that bag with chargers that came with the purchase of the Tesla and use that big plug. It be nice if 240V plugs were as common as the normal outlet and charging an EV car will be as common as a person finding an outlet to charge their iPhone. Maybe Starbucks could consider offering free EV charging, their store has a ton of plugs for laptops and iPhones.

If Phoenix AZ could do this, then every arcade or business I go to will have an outlet for me to plug into. And I could probably daily commute without ever having to stop for supercharging and always charge when I am parked. Maybe it can help 3rd world countries transition to EV vehicles if they have a cheap way to install charging spots.

 

[jjrandorin]

For areas around the USA and countries with little EV support, would it make sense to install a bunch of Nema outlets for EV owners to plug their cars into?

No, it wouldnt.

And maybe you can install like 50-100 of them for the same cost as one L2 charging station.

No, they couldnt.

Then shopping centers can have plentiful charging options for EV owners instead of like 2-4 charging station that are always taken up at shopping centers

This assumes that the only obstacle is "number of receptacles" and not "amount of power".

 

[Watts_Up]

People just need to bring their own cord and that's it.

This is how the Orange Charger system work.

Affordable EV Charging at Apartments

Orange designs and creates our hardware and software platform for electric vehicle charging to reduce the installation and management costs of electric vehicle charging at multi-unit properties.

www.orangecharger.com

 

[Darmie]

I think you're on to something and would agree a 50amp receptacle would be much cheaper than installing a full charging stall. I bet the wording on grants and such requires a more typical type of install. As jjrandorin mentioned, the power requirements still need to be met.

​

 

[srs5694]

For areas around the USA and countries with little EV support, would it make sense to install a bunch of Nema outlets for EV owners to plug their cars into? It probably could be cheaper than trying to install a bunch of Level 2 chargers. And maybe you can install like 50-100 of them for the same cost as one L2 charging station.

It wouldn't work out that way, for a number of reasons:

• If you're talking about NEMA 14-50 (208v/240v), then the potential draw on a site's power from, say, 50 NEMA 14-50 outlets would be equivalent to the potential draw from 50 Level 2 J1772 EVSEs. Increasing the site's power capabilities to cover this would likely be at least as expensive as buying 50 EVSEs. Thus, although this would save the cost of the EVSEs, it would still be expensive. Installing fewer EVSEs would probably be cheaper.
• If you're talking about NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 (120v), then the charge rate would be so slow that almost nobody would bother using them. That said, many buildings already have exterior 120v outlets, although they aren't intended primarily for EV usage.
• Billing (if the site owners wanted to do this) would be an issue. Granted, there are ways to do this, but they're relatively obscure. I, for one, have enough apps and payment methods set up for EV charging; I don't need another one.
• Many EVs don't come with Level 2 EVSEs. In fact, that's now true of Teslas, since Tesla has gotten cheap and is no longer including the Mobile Connector with every car. Thus, a NEMA 14-50 outlet would be of no use to many EV owners. Of course, if NEMA 14-50 outlets became common in public areas, many EV owners would buy compatible EVSEs; but this gets into a chicken-and-egg problem -- EV owners won't buy portable Level 2 EVSEs without available public plugs, and site owners have no reason to install the plugs if owners can't use them because the owners don't have compatible EVSEs.
• There's a theft risk with this plan, particularly for some cars. Some cars don't lock the J1772 handle to the car, so a thief could just unplug the EVSE from both the car and the plug and walk off with it. Teslas (and some other EVs) do lock the plug to the car, which minimizes the risk; but even then, if the thief wanted the copper, or was prepared to attach a new plug, a thief could cut the cable.
• Even with an available EVSE, many EV drivers wouldn't bother to use such public plugs in most cases. I certainly wouldn't. It's enough hassle to use a public Level 2 EVSE (particularly one that requires authentication). Opening my trunk to fish out the EVSE, untangle the cable, plug it in at both ends, and then undo this all when I'm done would add enough effort that I wouldn't do so except in very unusual circumstances. I can charge at home or, when I'm on the road, at Superchargers, far more easily. Add inclement weather into the picture and this issue gets much worse.

Then shopping centers can have plentiful charging options for EV owners instead of like 2-4 charging station that are always taken up at shopping centers. Pretty sure they could have over 20 charging spots if they just installed outlets for less than the cost of one Volta charging station. And maybe over 50% of the spots at a shopping center can have a random plug somewhere so no one needs to enforce if gas or EVs can park there.

I don't know the statistics offhand, but for me, I rarely spend more than an hour at a shopping center, and it's usually less than that. At best, I'd get something like 45 miles of range added to my Model 3 on a 48A Level 2 EVSE (and 30 miles on a NEMA 14-50 outlet with Tesla's Mobile Connector, which is limited to 32A) in an hour. That's not a big enticement to me. For me, where public Level 2 charging is most useful is at a hotel when I'm on a road trip. I'll be parked for hours there, and can fully charge the battery for the next leg of my journey.

People just need to bring their own cord and that's it. Or for Teslas, that bag with chargers that came with the purchase of the Tesla and use that big plug.

As noted above, Tesla no longer includes the Mobile Connector for new purchases. (At least, not for the Model 3 and Model Y. I'm not sure about the Model S and Model X, offhand.)

Also, consider what this would mean to potential EV buyers, if it were to become the dominant way to do Level 2 charging in public. To such a person, the need to deal with a Mobile Connector (or equivalent) to charge publicly, vs. use a public J1772 station, would be a further obstacle to EV ownership. It's better to keep it as simple as possible for potential EV buyers.

IMHO, supermarkets and malls would be better served by DC fast chargers than Level 2 EVSEs, much less NEMA 14-50 plugs. The 30-60-minute stay time that I suspect is typical of these locations is better matched to DC fast charging capabilities than to Level 2 charging. Widespread DC fast charger availability at retail outlets would help people who can't charge at home; if they shop once or twice a week, they could probably get most or all of their charging done at the same time. (That said, Level 2 charging at apartment complexes would be even better, since it would probably be cheaper.)

Public charging infrastructure does indeed need to improve -- in fact, it is improving, albeit not as quickly as most people in the EV community would like. I don't think that installing a bunch of NEMA 14-50 outlets is a cost-effective way to do this, a desirable solution, or particularly likely to happen. IMHO, the focus should be on Level 2 EVSEs at apartments, condos, workplaces, and public transit parking areas; and on DC fast chargers at malls, supermarkets, restaurants, and highway service areas.

 

[Genie]

The reasons stating why it won’t work are correct, except something similar works in Europe with Type 2/Mennekes instead of NEMA connections, and EVs carry appropriate cables.
I didn’t see how the billing works, I was renting an ice car.
The infrastucture cost certainly won’t be a small fraction of L2 charger as OP hoped, but it shouldn’t be more, depending on how they bill.

 

[XPsionic]

It wouldn't work out that way, for a number of reasons:

• If you're talking about NEMA 14-50 (208v/240v), then the potential draw on a site's power from, say, 50 NEMA 14-50 outlets would be equivalent to the potential draw from 50 Level 2 J1772 EVSEs. Increasing the site's power capabilities to cover this would likely be at least as expensive as buying 50 EVSEs. Thus, although this would save the cost of the EVSEs, it would still be expensive. Installing fewer EVSEs would probably be cheaper.
• If you're talking about NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 (120v), then the charge rate would be so slow that almost nobody would bother using them. That said, many buildings already have exterior 120v outlets, although they aren't intended primarily for EV usage.
• Billing (if the site owners wanted to do this) would be an issue. Granted, there are ways to do this, but they're relatively obscure. I, for one, have enough apps and payment methods set up for EV charging; I don't need another one.
• Many EVs don't come with Level 2 EVSEs. In fact, that's now true of Teslas, since Tesla has gotten cheap and is no longer including the Mobile Connector with every car. Thus, a NEMA 14-50 outlet would be of no use to many EV owners. Of course, if NEMA 14-50 outlets became common in public areas, many EV owners would buy compatible EVSEs; but this gets into a chicken-and-egg problem -- EV owners won't buy portable Level 2 EVSEs without available public plugs, and site owners have no reason to install the plugs if owners can't use them because the owners don't have compatible EVSEs.
• There's a theft risk with this plan, particularly for some cars. Some cars don't lock the J1772 handle to the car, so a thief could just unplug the EVSE from both the car and the plug and walk off with it. Teslas (and some other EVs) do lock the plug to the car, which minimizes the risk; but even then, if the thief wanted the copper, or was prepared to attach a new plug, a thief could cut the cable.
• Even with an available EVSE, many EV drivers wouldn't bother to use such public plugs in most cases. I certainly wouldn't. It's enough hassle to use a public Level 2 EVSE (particularly one that requires authentication). Opening my trunk to fish out the EVSE, untangle the cable, plug it in at both ends, and then undo this all when I'm done would add enough effort that I wouldn't do so except in very unusual circumstances. I can charge at home or, when I'm on the road, at Superchargers, far more easily. Add inclement weather into the picture and this issue gets much worse.

I don't know the statistics offhand, but for me, I rarely spend more than an hour at a shopping center, and it's usually less than that. At best, I'd get something like 45 miles of range added to my Model 3 on a 48A Level 2 EVSE (and 30 miles on a NEMA 14-50 outlet with Tesla's Mobile Connector, which is limited to 32A) in an hour. That's not a big enticement to me. For me, where public Level 2 charging is most useful is at a hotel when I'm on a road trip. I'll be parked for hours there, and can fully charge the battery for the next leg of my journey.

As noted above, Tesla no longer includes the Mobile Connector for new purchases. (At least, not for the Model 3 and Model Y. I'm not sure about the Model S and Model X, offhand.)

Also, consider what this would mean to potential EV buyers, if it were to become the dominant way to do Level 2 charging in public. To such a person, the need to deal with a Mobile Connector (or equivalent) to charge publicly, vs. use a public J1772 station, would be a further obstacle to EV ownership. It's better to keep it as simple as possible for potential EV buyers.

IMHO, supermarkets and malls would be better served by DC fast chargers than Level 2 EVSEs, much less NEMA 14-50 plugs. The 30-60-minute stay time that I suspect is typical of these locations is better matched to DC fast charging capabilities than to Level 2 charging. Widespread DC fast charger availability at retail outlets would help people who can't charge at home; if they shop once or twice a week, they could probably get most or all of their charging done at the same time. (That said, Level 2 charging at apartment complexes would be even better, since it would probably be cheaper.)

Public charging infrastructure does indeed need to improve -- in fact, it is improving, albeit not as quickly as most people in the EV community would like. I don't think that installing a bunch of NEMA 14-50 outlets is a cost-effective way to do this, a desirable solution, or particularly likely to happen. IMHO, the focus should be on Level 2 EVSEs at apartments, condos, workplaces, and public transit parking areas; and on DC fast chargers at malls, supermarkets, restaurants, and highway service areas.

Great post. I think NEMA 14-50 could be a solution for apartments, it's a lot cheaper than dedicated L2 stations and plugging in every 2-4 days on average with EVSE isn't as troublesome as twice in an hour.

I think ideally the charging solutions should be:

At home/apartment: at least L1 but ideally L2
Hotels/Movie theatre/Restaurants/Malls: L2
Interstate/National parks/Remote day trip destinations: L3

Unfortunately remote locations usually don't have enough power for L3.

 

[MP3Mike]

Great post. I think NEMA 14-50 could be a solution for apartments, it's a lot cheaper than dedicated L2 stations

How do you figure the "lots" cheaper? The only difference is a $100 14-50 outlet vs. a $400 Tesla wall connector. So $300. The majority of the cost is going to be labor and wire, especially as you get further from the breaker panel.

 

[srs5694]

I think ideally the charging solutions should be:

At home/apartment: at least L1 but ideally L2
Hotels/Movie theatre/Restaurants/Malls: L2
Interstate/National parks/Remote day trip destinations: L3

I think about the issue of what type of charging is appropriate from two perspectives: Long-distance travel and day-to-day charging for people who can't charge at home. Local public charging for those who can charge at home is of secondary importance, if that; it's a nice bonus to get a free kWh or two, but it's hardly necessary, and providing such perks is hardly a priority from a public policy point of view. That said....

IMHO, restaurants and malls are better served by DC fast chargers -- not necessarily the fastest ones (250kW to 350kW, currently), but 50kW to 150kW. At those speeds, a charge of 30-60 minutes can add significant range. Level 2 charging over such a short period doesn't add all that much range, and so will be of limited use to either road-trippers or local drivers who need to rely on public charging.

Movie theaters are an interesting in-between case, as the 2-3 hours parked there would enable a Level 2 EVSE to add a good deal of range to an energy-efficient EV, but not enough to completely charge it if it's well-drained. A 150kW DC fast charger would definitely be overkill for most EVs at movie theaters, but a DC barely-fast charger in the 24-50kW range might work well, too. Similar comments apply to public parks, roller rinks, etc., since people often spend more than an hour at these locations.

Unfortunately remote locations usually don't have enough power for L3.

DC fast chargers vary a lot in speed. If I understand correctly, 24 kW is as slow as they go, and at that speed, they don't need much, if anything, in grid upgrades, although the host site might need some power upgrades (a bigger breaker box, say). Even 24 kW would be a lot better than the typical 6 kW public Level 2 EVSE at certain locations.

There are also DC fast chargers that are currently deployed that use batteries to enable delivering fairly fast charges (100 or 150 kW, IIRC, for the units I'm thinking of), while drawing power from the grid at much slower rates. The idea is that the batteries are charged over a period of hours, and can then be discharged into an EV over minutes. I don't recall the name of the company that's selling these DC fast chargers. Of course, this wouldn't help the grid upgrade issue a lot at a big site with many chargers that are in heavy use, but it might work well for a remote site that needed just one or two DC fast chargers.

 

[gaswalla]

I think folks need to get smart about installing the correct charging station for the situation... L1 (120v) at places like airports - who needs L2 or L3 when the car will be parked there for days-... L2 (or 240 plugs) at work, hotels, and places the car could be parked for 8-20 hours.. and L3/DC fast chargers at places like markets or travel stops.
Getting tired of seeing well-intentioned folks install the wrong station (eg: 240v plug at a market or the airport parking lot)

 

[RayK]

How do you figure the "lots" cheaper? The only difference is a $100 14-50 outlet vs. a $400 Tesla wall connector. So $300. The majority of the cost is going to be labor and wire, especially as you get further from the breaker panel.

Along with each 14-50 outlet, you'll also need a GFCI breaker (since the outlets will be outdoor and potentially exposed to the elements).

 

[srs5694]

I think folks need to get smart about installing the correct charging station for the situation... L1 (120v) at places like airports - who needs L2 or L3 when the car will be parked there for days-... L2 (or 240 plugs) at work, hotels, and places the car could be parked for 8-20 hours.. and L3/DC fast chargers at places like markets or travel stops.
Getting tired of seeing well-intentioned folks install the wrong station (eg: 240v plug at a market or the airport parking lot)

I think a lot of people who plan these things are simply uninformed and so don't realize that what they're installing is sub-optimal. In many cases, it's probably also a matter of their installing what they can afford -- a restaurant can probably afford a Level 2 EVSE, but might balk at the cost of a DC fast charger. Tesla, Electrify America, and EVgo tend to do a better job of this. More recently, in my area (northern Rhode Island and nearby areas of Massachusetts), I've seen a lot of "coming soon" DC fast chargers popping up on PlugShare at gas stations. This will work only if there are nearby restaurants or shopping that's more substantial than the mini-marts that are typically attached to gas stations.

Sooner or later, the throw-the-spaghetti-at-the-wall-to-see-what-sticks phase will pass and we'll end up with something more useful. I just hope that the lessons are learned sooner rather than later, but those DC fast chargers at suburban gas stations don't make me optimistic about that. Those could end up being costly mistakes.

 

[MP3Mike]

Along with each 14-50 outlet, you'll also need a GFCI breaker (since the outlets will be outdoor and potentially exposed to the elements).

Yep, I forgot about that, so there goes another $100 of your savings. So now a 14-50 install is only $200 cheaper than a Tesla wall connector. (Yes, J1772 EVSE would cost more than the Tesla WC, but there are more reasonably prices ones available now than there used to be.)

And the Tesla wall connector route would give you power sharing ability so that you could install more of them than you could 14-50s.

 

[TunaBug]

Probably ongoing costs will make the initial hardware purchase moot. Things that come to mind:

Whether you're using L2 or NEMA you will also need a billing system. You will pay a monthly service cost for this regardless of NEMA or L2 EVSE.

Service contract for the site hardware will be another ongoing cost. Imagine how many times people will swap out those receptacles? (while bragging about how they're at least saving money by buying Leviton) Either type of installation will need on site service technicians.

I would think that insurance for the site would also be lower with hardwired L2 EVSE equipment, as compared to having customers constantly plugging/unplugging into high power receptacles of questionable quality and disrepair.

 

[Genie]

And billing will require metering at each NEMA or L2, and a CC reader or other verification.

 

[RayK]

I believe that all this talk about billing goes against the OP's desire to have FREE charging available. At least that's what I got out of the post.

 

[roblab]

How do you figure the "lots" cheaper? The only difference is a $100 14-50 outlet vs. a $400 Tesla wall connector. So $300. The majority of the cost is going to be labor and wire, especially as you get further from the breaker panel.

WELLLL, it doesn't cost so much if you can do your own wiring, which I can. I bought my outlet from The Home Depot years ago, spent around ten bucks on it. Bought some #6-3 w/g and have been using this for the past dozen years, from when I first bought my RAV4EV. Total cost around $20. Not $100. I did not charge myself for labor, so there's that, but I have to say that after having an "electrician" come do some work for me, I quickly figured out how to do it myself and save several hundreds of dollars. So, it's LOTS cheaper: Twenty bucks vs. whatever an "electrician" would charge for less than an hour's work, which I've found is around $400 an hour.

I cannot see the advantage of using Tesla's "wall connector". It does nothing different than a standard plug, other than it has its own cord. My Tesla came with a cord. I also did not have to buy the top-of-the-line outlet (Hubbel, etc.) because I figure no one is going to be unplugging this very often. It won't wear out.

 

[Genie]

WELLLL, it doesn't cost so much if you can do your own wiring, which I can. I bought my outlet from The Home Depot years ago, spent around ten bucks on it. Bought some #6-3 w/g and have been using this for the past dozen years, from when I first bought my RAV4EV. Total cost around $20. Not $100. I did not charge myself for labor, so there's that, but I have to say that after having an "electrician" come do some work for me, I quickly figured out how to do it myself and save several hundreds of dollars. So, it's LOTS cheaper: Twenty bucks vs. whatever an "electrician" would charge for less than an hour's work, which I've found is around $400 an hour.

I cannot see the advantage of using Tesla's "wall connector". It does nothing different than a standard plug, other than it has its own cord. My Tesla came with a cord. I also did not have to buy the top-of-the-line outlet (Hubbel, etc.) because I figure no one is going to be unplugging this very often. It won't wear out.

That’s a good example of economically setting up a home for charging. OP is talking about public charging, there’s not much DIY in that.

 

[Rocky_H]

This idea that there is big cost savings is kind of forgetting that the vast majority of the cost, probably 80-90% at least, is involved with the labor and overhead of bidding, approvals, wire run, concrete trenching through parking lot, etc. just to get to the end point to where you get to decide what to attach onto the ends of those wires. So a little hundred dollar difference of an outlet or EVSE device is going to be a pretty insignificant cost compared to the rest of the job of putting it in.

 

[jjrandorin]

I believe that all this talk about billing goes against the OP's desire to have FREE charging available. At least that's what I got out of the post.

What I got out of the first post was "If there were outlets everywhere I wouldnt have to use superchargers".

If Phoenix AZ could do this, then every arcade or business I go to will have an outlet for me to plug into. And I could probably daily commute without ever having to stop for supercharging and always charge when I am parked.