Neural Networks

[croman]

Yes. In recent builds the car clearly knew when it was out of it's lane because it would almost always have correct lane lines showing in the display even as it wandered across the lane boundaries. There had to have been some kind of control limitation that was preventing the vehicle from moving back to the center of the lane even when it knew it was in the 'wrong' place. Another poster relayed information from Tesla tech support to the effect that the car was only 'allowed' to turn a certain amount depending on speed, which nicely explains this weird mismatch between it's perception and it's actions. If lane holding is substantially improved now (I haven't received the update, myself) then Tesla must be confident enough in the new lane detection and steering planning processes that they are comfortable with relaxing those steering limitations.

Its just odd Tesla restricted turning radius at certain speeds (resulting in my car previously touching or even crossing lane lines during sweeping curves but tight curves went OK (since the car would slow and in some cases almost stop).

Good luck getting the update its being sent like crazy, so if you're on wifi you will get it (or use mobile hotspot). This one is worth it. Really impressive (the superlatives come easy with this build).

 

[croman]

So does this mean I should have taken the $3k deal on AP? I chose not to when I ordered, but I think I can still add it before I take delivery.

Its not $3k (unless you mean AP1 which was $3k at the end). EAP is $5k ($6k after delivery). I'm not sure you need a change order to add software (I bought it all including FSD). FSD should be worthwhile as well because they finally have a NN that could enable those features.

@jimmy_d -- do you see any hints of stop sign or red light recognition? Is there anything to prevent the fisheye from being used for that task? You mentioned cars and pedestrians but a red/yellow/green light is fairly easy to identify (as is a stop sign). I'm just shocked that this feature isn't at least being hinted at in the code (unless FSD is really an entirely different codebase).

 

[croman]

I have a local winding road I test AP updates on and I can say that at high enough speed it still veers out of its lane across the center line on turns. It does correct back into the middle but if there were oncoming cars it would be quite dangerous.

And this isn't a freaky high speed, its a 35mph road where folks typically drive 40 to 45 and I set it at 40mph (due to local road Autosteer restrictions) and it will still veer.

At 35mph though the turn is negotiated perfectly, which it never did before. So it is improving, but its still not perfect there.

What I'm interested to test is freeway curves at 90mph Autosteer with no trailing car. That's always been incredibly sketchy as it gets really close to the wall. It seems to be a combination of detecting the curve too late and not turning enough. I haven't tried with 10.4 though!

10.4 did all the turns that prior ones failed on at all speeds. I just did a trip to downtown Chicago and back on I-90/94 and it could do the sweeping curves at 80mph. 17.50.2 took me into the next lanes and 17.50.3/18.6.1 would take me to the lines (which is super dangerous).

I'll take it on Sheridan Rd (my torture test road). I consistently have 4 disengagements. It features gorges, hills, blind turns, and lots of winding with elevation changes (as good as that gets in IL). If it has 0 disengagements, bring on L3.

 

[mongo]

Its just odd Tesla restricted turning radius at certain speeds (resulting in my car previously touching or even crossing lane lines during sweeping curves but tight curves went OK (since the car would slow and in some cases almost stop).

It may have been a self imposed safeguard to minimize the effect of bad control commands. i.e. no ability for AP to throw the car sideways too quickly.

but a red/yellow/green light is fairly easy to identify

If they were using full color cameras. I think they only have red and grey feeds.
(still need to distinguish which light for which lane, yielding rules, yadda, yadda)

 

[DragonRider]

Its not $3k (unless you mean AP1 which was $3k at the end). EAP is $5k ($6k after delivery). I'm not sure you need a change order to add software (I bought it all including FSD). FSD should be worthwhile as well because they finally have a NN that could enable those features.

@jimmy_d -- do you see any hints of stop sign or red light recognition? Is there anything to prevent the fisheye from being used for that task? You mentioned cars and pedestrians but a red/yellow/green light is fairly easy to identify (as is a stop sign). I'm just shocked that this feature isn't at least being hinted at in the code (unless FSD is really an entirely different codebase).

I'm not @jimmy_d , but this has been in the code for a very long time:
Tesla’s new Autopilot update detected and displayed stop signs, but it didn’t act on them

I don't think they trust it yet, or they aren't ready to act on it yet, clearly they are still trying to get EAP to work right, local roads is an entirely different mess, because before / during stop sign / light recognition they also have to solve the untracked car problem at those stop lights and stop signs.

 

[mongo]

I'm not @jimmy_d , but this has been in the code for a very long time:
Tesla’s new Autopilot update detected and displayed stop signs, but it didn’t act on them

I don't think they trust it yet, or they aren't ready to act on it yet, clearly they are still trying to get EAP to work right, local roads is an entirely different mess, because before / during stop sign / light recognition they also have to solve the untracked car problem at those stop lights and stop signs.

Am I correct in thinking stopping at a stop sign can be classified as a level 3 thing, but starting from a red light or stop sign is a level 4 thing?

 

[JamesL6]

@jimmy_d Just to make sure I am understanding this correctly, have the main, narrow, and repeaters separated themselves from GoogleNet and are running a NN that was developed by Tesla while the fisheye is still running on GN?

 

[TrafficEng]

So does this mean I should have taken the $3k deal on AP? I chose not to when I ordered, but I think I can still add it before I take delivery.

Yeah, you will not regret it. I can't imagine driving without AP, even with the current limitations.

I received 2018.10.4 and on my drive today (about 150 miles) the lane keeping; slow down for curves; and detecting stopped vehicles ahead were all substantially improved.

 

[Matias]

jimmy_d- great review. Your last paragraph about "combining these camera outputs with the perception of sensors and making driving directions" will be the most critical step if TESLA has to roll our FSD in near future..

I’m completely layman, but isn’t this much easier to do? I’ve understood, that vision is the hard part. Aren’t the actual driving decisions like “drive between the lines - don’t collide with pedestrians “ much easier and more like simpler binary logic?

 

[Dan Detweiler]

So...I am a complete imbecile when it comes to technology! Trying to translate your wonderful analysis (which to me sounds like Greek!). Is the system now using more of the cameras than in previous versions or is it using the same number of cameras and sensors, just changing the way the information is gathered and interpreted...or both?

Seems to be a dramatic improvement over previous versions.

Thanks for the help.

Dan

 

[Matias]

Andrej Karpathy on Twitter

 

[croman]

So...I am a complete imbecile when it comes to technology! Trying to translate your wonderful analysis (which to me sounds like Greek!). Is the system now using more of the cameras than in previous versions or is it using the same number of cameras and sensors, just changing the way the information is gathered and interpreted...or both?

Seems to be a dramatic improvement over previous versions.

Thanks for the help.

Dan

No new active cameras yet. This is simply a major improvement in the software that the system uses to interpret the visual information from the 3 active cameras. Software is written but not yet active for at least 2 more cameras (side repeater cams).

 

[Shateam]

No new active cameras yet. This is simply a major improvement in the software that the system uses to interpret the visual information from the 3 active cameras. Software is written but not yet active for at least 2 more cameras (side repeater cams).

I'm sure this has been asked already but do you know if EAP will eventually use the side repeater cams or are the side and b-pillar cams reserved for FSD only?

 

[Bladerskb]

Am I correct in thinking stopping at a stop sign can be classified as a level 3 thing, but starting from a red light or stop sign is a level 4 thing?

Its quite amusing to watch all the hysterical that came with this update, people proclaiming that this proves that FSD is on the way.
I think everyone one needs to take a second and chill for a minute. Sure i'm excited to see Tesla fans finally get their cherry popped.

But none of this is proof of FSD and is simply cruise control and lane-keeping. Lastly no, driver features such as stop signs, and traffic light has nothing to do with level 3 or level 4.

Level 3 means the driver is no longer responsible for monitoring the road and environment and can then attend to other task like watching a video, movie, texting, reading a book, etc. The car will have to give the driver a reasonable duration of time to return back into the loop and resume control (ex 10 secs).

Level 4 means the driver is not needed, therefore the driver could go to sleep the entire trip or not even be anyone of the driver seat.

Basically:

- Level 0-1 = Hands on
- Level 2 = Hands off
- Level 3 - Eyes off
- Level 4-5 - Mind off


So lets try not to get lost in the sauce here.

 

[bhakan]

I’m completely layman, but isn’t this much easier to do? I’ve understood, that vision is the hard part. Aren’t the actual driving decisions like “drive between the lines - don’t collide with pedestrians “ much easier and more like simpler binary logic?

Right now it does not recognize another car entering the lane that I am changing to using AP when I am on the highway (US). Specifically, if I am doing an autolane change to the right lane and if a car from the far right lane suddenly the camera/sensors do not quickly recognize and make driving decisions. I, the driver, have to make quick decisions for the other driver's driving decision. This could possibly be because the calculations made with the existing software/camera etc does not quickly let my car accelerate/decelerate to avoid collision. I am nor programmer. Just an observation. I have seen this happen to me quiet often when I drive during rush hour on our Beltway.

 

[mongo]

Its quite amusing to watch all the hysterical that came with this update, people proclaiming that this proves that FSD is on the way.
I think everyone one needs to take a second and chill for a minute. Sure i'm excited to see Tesla fans finally get their cherry popped.

But none of this is proof of FSD and is simply cruise control and lane-keeping. Lastly no, driver features such as stop signs, and traffic light has nothing to do with level 3 or level 4.

Level 3 means the driver is no longer responsible for monitoring the road and environment and can then attend to other task like watching a video, movie, texting, reading a book, etc. The car will have to give the driver a reasonable duration of time to return back into the loop and resume control (ex 10 secs).

Level 4 means the driver is not needed, therefore the driver could go to sleep the entire trip or not even be anyone of the driver seat.

Basically:

- Level 0-1 = Hands on
- Level 2 = Hands off
- Level 3 - Eyes off
- Level 4-5 - Mind off


So lets try not to get lost in the sauce here.

I was unclear, I was trying to ask if stopping for a traffic signal is a lower level on the scale than choosing to go after stopping. If so, adding stop sign recognition without also having the ability to then start again is a broken feature.

Car and driver's level 3 definition:

System capability: In the right conditions, the car can manage most aspects of driving, including monitoring the environment. The system prompts the driver to intervene when it encounters a scenario it can’t navigate. • Driver involvement: The driver must be available to take over at any time. • Example: Audi Traffic Jam Pilot.

 

[kvandivo]

So...I am a complete imbecile when it comes to technology! Trying to translate your wonderful analysis (which to me sounds like Greek!). *snip*

That's why they call him Jimmy The Greek... Oh wait.. nevermind..

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Its quite amusing to watch all the hysterical that came with this update, people proclaiming that this proves that FSD is on the way.
I think everyone one needs to take a second and chill for a minute. Sure i'm excited to see Tesla fans finally get their cherry popped.

But none of this is proof of FSD and is simply cruise control and lane-keeping. Lastly no, driver features such as stop signs, and traffic light has nothing to do with level 3 or level 4.

Level 3 means the driver is no longer responsible for monitoring the road and environment and can then attend to other task like watching a video, movie, texting, reading a book, etc. The car will have to give the driver a reasonable duration of time to return back into the loop and resume control (ex 10 secs).

Level 4 means the driver is not needed, therefore the driver could go to sleep the entire trip or not even be anyone of the driver seat.

Basically:

- Level 0-1 = Hands on
- Level 2 = Hands off
- Level 3 - Eyes off
- Level 4-5 - Mind off


So lets try not to get lost in the sauce here.

I don't see many folks using this update as proof FSD is just around the corner, although personally I think it's closer than many believe. I see it as evidence that significant progress is being made. Without progress it will never happen, that's for sure.

Dan

 

[Bladerskb]

Car and driver's level 3 definition:

navigating traffic signs/light has nothing to do with defining level 2/3/4.

Car and drivers definition is HUGELY incorrect which is not surprising seeing almost every statement about SDC from the media is filled with misinformation. That is why you should go to the actual SAE document.

But here's a good explanation by toyota at 20 minutes

 

[Bladerskb]

I don't see many folks using this update as proof FSD is just around the corner, although personally I think it's closer than many believe. I see it as evidence that significant progress is being made. Without progress it will never happen, that's for sure.

Dan

What is "closer than many believe"?

and why is it "closer"?