New 120D? - Also... 100D vs P100D?

[Peteski]

I know the 100D is a little quicker above 60 mph, it’s just too subtle to notice unless you are actually racing a 100D back to back. Up to 60 the difference is objectively 0.1 sec, although I have read of uncorked 100Ds being apparently faster than advertised (like the one in your graph), which would be an odd bit of Tesla marketing. It was interesting to see the iPace drag race against the X75D and X100D as it beat them both to 60 mph by about the same car length. Other graphs I’ve seen of X100D vs X75D show acceleration figures very close to advertised, so maybe the S100D has had an extra boost on uncorking?

Anyway my point is that only a P100D feels quicker, a lot quicker! The 100D and 75D are now very close in real world performance. It would be good to see a back to back drag race of both new 2018 spec cars.

 

[kbf1981]

Just by curiosity, what make you decide for choosing the Model S versus the Model X?

I just like the way it looks better and already have a Land Rover Defender 110 so don't need lots of space. I want something sporty and fun... but that's interesting and can be used everyday to commute and visit customers.

 

[Peteski]

I just like the way it looks better and already have a Land Rover Defender 110 so don't need lots of space. I want something sporty and fun... but that's interesting and can be used everyday to commute and visit customers.

Teslas certainly make a great talking point when you meet people! I've never had so many people chat about my X, really surprised me how much interest they generate.

 

[wdolson]

This, and additionally from what I've heard Tesla hasn't fulfilled the order with Panasonic yet to buy 2 billion 16500 cells yet.

About the fit/dont fit: Could be, the 2170 is just 5mm higher. so maybe this could work in the current pack. But still, as you point out too there is a redesign in the works. It doesn't make a lot of sense to work out a new pack design now if you're going to redesign the entire car a year later.

I suspect the 2 billion cell contract is pretty close to filled. If all packs were 7104 cells (original 85 and 90 pack), 2 billion cells would be around 280K cars. Now a fair percentage have been smaller pack cars that used fewer cells. But even if all were 75s with 6216 cells, that would be around 321K cars. They are just approaching 200K sold in the US and I think about 60% of their total sales have been in the US. Some of the cars in that total are Roadsters and Model 3s, but the vast majority are cars with the 18650s.

If they haven't used 2 billion 18650s yet, they are pretty close.

With a redesign of the S/X, who's to say they won't reuse some elements from the original design? They could stick to the same skateboard, probably with new motors, and even keep some other elements of the original car. The only real drawback of the Model S is the roofline slopes too much in the back making it kind of tight for taller adults and the interior was always rather spartan. Adding more storage in the interior, tweaking the roofline angle a bit, and then new motors and electronics underneath would answer most complaints about the S. An S wagon would be awesome. Robert Llewellyn's Fully Charged showed a "shooting brake" conversion that was much more practical than the current S.

In an X redesign, they should offer a version without the falcon wing doors. They could drop the price quite a bit with some kind of conventional door. It would also be a lot cheaper to build.

I expect the bulk of a redesign will be a cleaner design that is cheaper to build incorporating lessons learned from the Model 3. To the consumer, things may not look dramatically different, but the car may be lighter with much better range.

If they want to get get money out of existing customers, they could offer a 2170 upgrade pack for existing Model S/X. If it promised vastly increased range, I could see enough people to make it worthwhile shelling out the money for one.

I may not go for it right away. I got lucky and got a primo battery pack. Two years in and 0% degradation with 298 miles at 100%.

Though a 400 mile pack would be tempting. On road trips that would only require one supercharging a day on days with long legs.

 

[mrkisskiss]

Well, I have a P100D and it's enormous fun when you floor it... people scream, and it's laughs all round. Also, it's occasionally useful to get out of a sticky situation once or twice, when in other cars the only option would have been to slam on the breaks. It feels like no other car - I haven't driven a 100D, but I have driven plenty of 90Ds which I'm sure are identical in terms of handling. They do feel pretty sluggish in comparison, which is to say they still drive better than any other car out there (imo), but they don't take the hair off your face. It's still unreal compared to a petrol car.

If I were doing it again (and indeed next time I do), I'd get the 100D. The range is worth it, the performance isn't.

During normal driving, the P100DL is a very twitchy car unless you put it in sport mode (i.e take off ludicrous mode)... and that somewhat defeats the point of having it. It's also a LOT more expensive; regardless of your bank balance, 40k is a lot of cheese.

Plus, if you're driving it in London traffic (or Manchester traffic!) in Ludicrous mode, well... sir, I salute you. I actually will, and you'll have plenty of time to see me because we'll be going at 4mph.

 

[Peteski]

it's occasionally useful to get out of a sticky situation once or twice.

The only time I wished I had a P100D was when an Audi RS6 came past me the other day. Then I noticed we were already well above the speed limit, so I backed off and let him go. It would have been fun to blow him away, but probably not a sensible move anyway. To put it in perspective I'm happy with the equivalent of Cayenne Turbo performance up to a ton and much quicker throttle response. An S would be a fair bit quicker than my X too in equivalent spec. Fast enough for most needs I think. If I had to resort to using P acceleration to avoid anything I wouldn't expect it to end well sooner or later!

 

[NewTMSMan]

I have a P100D and a 100D (albeit the 100D is a Model X). I daily drive the P100D and my wife drives the Model X. The 100D drives great and if I never drove a P100D I would be very happy with that car. As is the problem with Teslas in general, once you drive one you end up buying one, so once I drove the P100D I had to buy it. Mine never leaves Ludicrous Mode and I never tire of the acceleration. I have run it against a neighbors Huracan and another neighbors Demon and it does not disappoint, there is almost nothing that can touch this car from a dig on the street. As you can see from my pic I have the 21s on the Model S and while it probably hurts the range, I am willing to give that up for the looks (although 19s don't look bad). We have the 20s on the X right now, but 22s are on their way.

What I find with both cars is we have never had a range issue. A larger battery might be better, but to be honest I think 100 kWh is all most people would need. What people who have not yet owned a Tesla do not think about is that it is so easy to recharge at home that you treat it like a cell phone and just plug it in often and keep it charged. With Supercharger network (at least in the US) long trips are also not an issue and 20 more kWh would not really change much, possibly save one stop in an 8 hour trip, saving maybe 15 - 30 minutes. What I did not realize until I was driving a Tesla was how relaxing having to stop makes a trip. Stopping every few hours is actually nice, and while it adds time it avoids the "let's just push through" approach for longer trips that I use to employ and made longer trips painful.

So in my view (as many have said) buy the biggest battery you need / can afford, and only buy the P if that really matters to you. The 100D is a great car and drives great and is probably quicker than any car you have owned before. Wheel choice is mainly cosmetic and I would not worry too much about the range impact TBH, although it has been documented to be 10% - 20%.

Good luck with the choice, my only other bit of advice is once you get the Tesla be prepared for minor issues to occur (a lot like an early model iPhone). They will happen and they will not go away. If you make peace with this, you will enjoy the car a lot more. My first few months of ownership were spent being frustrated with all the small things wrong with both cars. Once I made peace with the fact that small things will continually go wrong and I will need to periodically reboot the car to get things working again I enjoy them a lot more (recent example was this weekend when Slacker stopped working - not Tesla's fault - but my car (MCU) required a reboot after Slacker was back online to get everything working properly again).

EDIT: Forgot to add, you cannot have my referral code so please do not ask

 

[Tozz]

With Supercharger network (at least in the US) long trips are also not an issue and 20 more kWh would not really change much, possibly save one stop in an 8 hour trip, saving maybe 15 - 30 minutes. What I did not realize until I was driving a Tesla was how relaxing having to stop makes a trip. Stopping every few hours is actually nice, and while it adds time it avoids the "let's just push through" approach for longer trips that I use to employ and made longer trips painful.

Agree! With 100 kWh you can do most if not all "regular commutes". On any trips longer than that a stop is welcome anyway. To go to the toilet, have something to eat or whatever.

 

[jaguar36]

I want a bigger battery, for a few reasons. First is the issue of a trip where you are staying at somewhere without charging. Its rare around here for a hotel to have any charging available and if you are staying for more than a day or two, its very easy to get into a situation where you need to make a special trip to the supercharger and back. Wasting a few hours of vacation time to charge the car sucks.
The other situation is in the winter range can plummet, particularly if you need to make multiple trips without charging in between. Winter range is already much lower, and the added energy needed to warm up the cabin and battery multiple times can really be painful.

I've got a P100D and a 85 and while the performance of the P100D is amazing (ludicrous always!) I've never felt the 85 to be lacking in performance and the 100D is going to be even better. The P100D is a huge cost premium and a slight range hit for performance that isn't really all that useful. If you can afford it, go for it, but I don't think you'd ever feel like you were missing something with a 100D.

 

[wdolson]

Well, I have a P100D and it's enormous fun when you floor it... people scream, and it's laughs all round. Also, it's occasionally useful to get out of a sticky situation once or twice, when in other cars the only option would have been to slam on the breaks. It feels like no other car - I haven't driven a 100D, but I have driven plenty of 90Ds which I'm sure are identical in terms of handling. They do feel pretty sluggish in comparison, which is to say they still drive better than any other car out there (imo), but they don't take the hair off your face. It's still unreal compared to a petrol car.

If I were doing it again (and indeed next time I do), I'd get the 100D. The range is worth it, the performance isn't.

During normal driving, the P100DL is a very twitchy car unless you put it in sport mode (i.e take off ludicrous mode)... and that somewhat defeats the point of having it. It's also a LOT more expensive; regardless of your bank balance, 40k is a lot of cheese.

Plus, if you're driving it in London traffic (or Manchester traffic!) in Ludicrous mode, well... sir, I salute you. I actually will, and you'll have plenty of time to see me because we'll be going at 4mph.

I only have a 90D and full open throttle on that makes me queasy. I've always been prone to motion sickness.

But the 90D is plenty of car for me. Its tremendous, instant acceleration has gotten me out of a few jams. One was with a motorcyclist the other day who had more bike than he knew how to handle, but thought he was the hottest thing on the road. He entered the freeway behind a truck that was going about 5 mph slower than I was. I was in the process of passing the truck when I heard the motorcycle's engine getting closer. He zipped through the small gap between the truck and me just before I got to the truck.

Then he went back into the slow lane (I was in the fast lane) and was weaving all over the place because he almost lost control. I waited until I was sure he was weaving the other way from my lane and I twitched the throttle. I went from about 65 mph to over 90 virtually instantaneously and ended up a mile ahead of him. I slowed back down to around 65 and continued on my way. I watched my rear view mirror and saw he was struggling to catch up to me. Down the road where there was another freeway entrance he passed me and several other cars in the freeway onramp merge lane. He must have been doing around 90 and the engine on his bike was screaming.

He slowed down to exit about another mile down the road and I got another look at his bike as he exited. It looked like a custom bike painted green with a Harley motor. I told my SO about it. She used to ride and built a few custom bikes. (Her ex was approached by Hell's Angels at a bike rally in Nevada, he sensibly but politely turned down the offer.) She wrote the guy off immediately when she heard he had a green bike. Green is a bad luck color in the Harley world.

In any case, having a screwy driver in your rear view mirror is usually better than having them in front of you and this car is outstanding at putting those people "behind me". For someone who has driven modern sports cars, the 90D/100D probably feels sluggish, but it's plenty of car for me. I would have been fine with less acceleration, but what I have does come in handy.

 

[kbf1981]

Before I had children and worked more, I had a string of Porsche's, a Lamborghini LP550, a Ferrari 430.... lots of sporty stuff. Thats what's attracting me to themail P100D.

I miss the sports cars (although the Defender is awesome and I've no intention of selling it), but I miss the drama, speed, excitement, engagement... I used to do supermarket runs in the Lambo and it felt like an event.

I wouldn't buy one of those cars now as I can't take my son and girlfriend in them at the same time. I think it also gives off the wrong impression to customers. But a P100D.... I think would almost be a talking point in a good way. Similar to the Defender.

I've asked the dealer about inventory cars. Our year end isn't for a couple months so I can wait. I'd prefer inventory as it's free money (the savings). Still not totally decided on 100 vs P100 but leaning towards P.

 

[NewTMSMan]

I'd prefer inventory as it's free money (the savings). Still not totally decided on 100 vs P100 but leaning towards P.

Could not agree more, both are my Tesla's were inventory cars, back when they were more plentiful and I saved a lot of money.

 

[sidmini]

Before I had children and worked more, I had a string of Porsche's, a Lamborghini LP550, a Ferrari 430.... lots of sporty stuff. Thats what's attracting me to themail P100D.

I've asked the dealer about inventory cars. Our year end isn't for a couple months so I can wait. I'd prefer inventory as it's free money (the savings). Still not totally decided on 100 vs P100 but leaning towards P.

I am also coming from land rover / range rover and whilst there is some emotion and nostalgia about owning one, mine hasn't moved off my drive for months!. From what you have said about previously owning fast cars, I would try and pick an inventory P100D which hopefully will save you a big packet rather than custom order. The P100D would blow all of them away from the lights! I think you would really enjoy it! I've sent you a PM

 

[wdolson]

If you like Land Rover you could always get a Bollinger. They look like very useful hauling vehicles.

 

[12Pack]

Before I had children and worked more, I had a string of Porsche's, a Lamborghini LP550, a Ferrari 430.... lots of sporty stuff. Thats what's attracting me to themail P100D.

I miss the sports cars (although the Defender is awesome and I've no intention of selling it), but I miss the drama, speed, excitement, engagement... I used to do supermarket runs in the Lambo and it felt like an event.

I wouldn't buy one of those cars now as I can't take my son and girlfriend in them at the same time. I think it also gives off the wrong impression to customers. But a P100D.... I think would almost be a talking point in a good way. Similar to the Defender.

I've asked the dealer about inventory cars. Our year end isn't for a couple months so I can wait. I'd prefer inventory as it's free money (the savings). Still not totally decided on 100 vs P100 but leaning towards P.

As I replied earlier in the thread I'd moved from a 85 to the P100D. Now that I realize you are in Manchester too, I have to add that apart from a few hoons in the early hours, don't really have the opportunity in normal driving to appreciate the difference even compared to the lowly 85. And you have to realize the P100D doesn't stop or turn very well in comparison to its acceleration potential, so you do have to be careful where you use it.

 

[Peteski]

Still not totally decided on 100 vs P100 but leaning towards P.

Drive them both, it's the only way to decide if the P is worth the money.

 

[Lolly]

Lastly, don't overthink it. I wish I'd bought a Tesla earlier now I've been driving one for a few months! On an everyday basis, the EV driving experience is light years better than a conventional car and no way will I ever be going back!!

Here, here! Me too.

 

[WannabeOwner]

If it promised vastly increased range, I could see enough people to make it worthwhile shelling out the money for one

I wonder if Tesla's "knowledge" will allow them to get more range in a way that competitors won't - i.e. Tesla @ Version 2 and Others starting at Version 1.5

I did 320 miles in a day last weekend, but that's a rare, rare, thing for a Brit like me. A car with 300 mile range (so 320 total to allow some "buffer") would mean my current supercharging of a day or two a month would drop to "nothing". My car is 2 years old ... I'd change for more range Current S100D would probably get me 270 real-world miles, my P90D is 220 ... that extra 50 miles is not quite making the change "essential", but a bit over 300 miles would do it for me.

 

[wdolson]

I wonder if Tesla's "knowledge" will allow them to get more range in a way that competitors won't - i.e. Tesla @ Version 2 and Others starting at Version 1.5

I did 320 miles in a day last weekend, but that's a rare, rare, thing for a Brit like me. A car with 300 mile range (so 320 total to allow some "buffer") would mean my current supercharging of a day or two a month would drop to "nothing". My car is 2 years old ... I'd change for more range Current S100D would probably get me 270 real-world miles, my P90D is 220 ... that extra 50 miles is not quite making the change "essential", but a bit over 300 miles would do it for me.

Tesla doesn't talk that much about their battery chemistry, but it's obvious they have been tinkering with the chemistry all along. In another thread here there has been some talk about a guy name Munro who takes apart cars to help improve them. He often contracts with auto makers to get suggestions on how to improve car design for smoother production and reduce costs. He got a hold of a couple of Model 3s and has been taking them apart.

The Tesla fan boys are a bit up in arms because he did have some criticisms of Tesla's build quality and they used a lot of extra parts to do things that could have been done a lot cheaper. He said the build quality is about on par with Kia in the 1990s. However he said that Tesla is way, way ahead of absolutely everyone in battery pack design and electronics. He's done some work on cutting edge defense products and he said the electronics is on par with the state of the art stuff being built for the military.

When the i3 came out he took one of those apart and he said they had the best battery pack he'd ever seen, but he said the design and build of the Tesla Model 3 pack blew the i3's pack out of the water.

He concluded saying he wished Tesla would get some guys like him into the factory to help them fix the dinosaur tech (bending metal), but any car company that isn't worried about Tesla's ability to build electronics and batteries is in deep trouble.

As far as travel, in general everything is closer together in Europe than in the western US. A round trip to the nearest major city from Portland is 180 miles each way. I've done the round trip a number of times in one day. For a few months I was making the trip once a week.

I've done 700 miles in one day from the Bay Area home, but that's a very long day on the road. On a trip to California 500-600 miles in a day is pretty normal. A 400 mile battery would mean only one charging stop in a day for me. Any other stops are optional.

The east coast can have major cities pretty close together, but there are lots of places where if you want to get to another city, it's going to take a while.

 

[WannabeOwner]

On a trip to California 500-600 miles in a day is pretty normal

Interesting insight, thanks.

A long day for me is usually out-and-back. I can clock up 300-350 miles, but its two 150-175 trips, so I may well not need to benefit from a ("driver recharge" ) stop on each leg

Of course if I had destination charging I'd be fine. Anything non-Supercharger in the UK is a joke. Toss-a-coin for whether it is a) working b) not blocked (by slow charging EV, let alone ICE, and for sure there will be very few stalls at each site) and c) I happen to have the right APP, (registered and sometimes with Cash Deposit sitting on it) for the Vendor's charger than I actually park at. Given I am, at that point, 150 miles from home the chances are very high that all the local chargers are with a Vendor that I have never heard of before ... (all that is improving with time of course ... meantime Tesla are rolling out more Superchargers too ...)

Charging currently is, say, 20 minutes on both outbound and return trip, plus each stop needing 5-minutes extra driving (that's what Google Maps tells me is the time to get from highway off-ramp, into service centre, and back onto Ramp). In UK its reasonably likely that there won't be a Supercharger en route, so might well add 10 miles to the journey to visit one - so that's 10 minutes driving plus some extra charging for the 10 miles detour.

It does seem nuts to say that I'm prepared to spend £10K more on a car to avoid that once or twice a month ... but £/$10K deprecated 50% and split over 3 years is about 140 per month, and my charge-out-rate (and my justification for inconvenience) easily eclipses that ... and over here I'm saving twice that, a month, on the difference between Gas and Electricity