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2. During the earnings call conducted on January 27th 2021, Elon mentioned that “the new S currently uses the 18650 form factor, they're just a more advanced cell” while answering analyst Alex Potter of Piper Sandler.
Apparently, not advanced enough safety wise...lolIt's the "more advanced cell" part....
Well, the fire of the plaid has proven my hunch incorrect. I was wrong.I spotted this in a YouTube channel that featured a Sandy Munro presentation about battery technology. Sandy said this picture came to him “somehow”. Could this be a prototype model S Plaid battery pack of 4680s?
Charged Electric Vehicles Magazine YouTube Link go to 7:35 ish.
No, Porsche doesn’t do this kind of physical pack reconfiguration. They have a fixed “800V” pack configuration (I don’t recall the exact nominal pack voltage offhand) and then have a DC-DC voltage converter to boost the voltage by 2X when using older CCS chargers that support only a peak of 500V.They could also reconfigure the pack after charging to make it 120s of course, Porsche does the ~400V to ~800V switch (don’t they?) but that is totally different and easier to do (take half the series 800V stack and put it in parallel with the other half).
Your linked article guesses that’s how Porsche does it. If there is a link to an article that describes it as an unswitched 800V pack, please post it.No, Porsche doesn’t do this kind of physical pack reconfiguration. They have a fixed “800V” pack configuration (I don’t recall the exact nominal pack voltage offhand) and then have a DC-DC voltage converter to boost the voltage by 2X when using older CCS chargers that support only a peak of 500V.
This is a 3-year-old article that I wrote about the trade offs that is still relevant:
How does 800V charging work?
Porsche has been working on a new all-electric Mission E which will push the boundaries in a big way on ultra-fast charging. The brand aims to be the first production car that will charge at over 2…electricrevs.com
Interesting. Good sleuthing.Just in case anyone has a tinfoil chapeau around, the owner of the burned plaid was Bart Smith, an executive at Susquehanna known as the “Crypto King” who leads crypto trading. Susquehanna has a hedge fund arm and they have historically been net short Tesla despite their MM arm owning tons of shares (and thus the media reporting that the firm is a huge Tesla investor).
Thanks for the info. I don’t pay attention to Porsche much and I think some articles initially speculated about pack reconfiguration. Hence my uncertainty above.No, Porsche doesn’t do this kind of physical pack reconfiguration. They have a fixed “800V” pack configuration (I don’t recall the exact nominal pack voltage offhand) and then have a DC-DC voltage converter to boost the voltage by 2X when using older CCS chargers that support only a peak of 500V.
Rivian has a patent for physical pack reconfiguration to deal with “400” vs “800” volt charging but the design seemed kludgy to me and at one point awhile ago Rivian denied to me that they were going to use that approach in their first-gen pickup and SUV.
This is a 3-year-old article that I wrote about the trade offs that is still relevant:
How does 800V charging work?
Porsche has been working on a new all-electric Mission E which will push the boundaries in a big way on ultra-fast charging. The brand aims to be the first production car that will charge at over 2…electricrevs.com
It sure would be awesome to see a similar document from Tesla on the Plaid powertrain. That will never happen though. Tesla doesn't need to convince buyers to commit, which is Porsche's fundamental motivation.Thanks for the info. I don’t pay attention to Porsche much and I think some articles initially speculated about pack reconfiguration. Hence my uncertainty above.
And the Porsche documentation confirms your article (says a DC charger is used). https://newsroom.porsche.com/dam/jc...8b845e321/PAG_Taycan_Technology_PM_EN.pdf.PDF
Do you know what is the limit of current on the current V3s? Isn’t it the max current right now around 700A-800A when at 250kW, low SoC? I haven’t gone to look at your tables…. But in any case with (perhaps) 25% higher voltage with the Plaid, wouldn’t that be just ~10% more current at 350kW? The V3 cables as is are pretty svelte…would they even have to get thicker for V4 (maybe to enable Cybertruck, they would…not sure what the exact plan is there)?but 350kW from V4 Superchargers (at ~400V) is going to need more than 800A, which is a lot to ask of a cable that is manageable by the full spectrum of consumers.
Within the article is an update noting a subsequent confirmation that Porsche actually did end up using DC to DC conversion.Your linked article guesses that’s how Porsche does it. If there is a link to an article that describes it as an unswitched 800V pack, please post it.
Update: Porsche actually added a “DC to DC” voltage converter but it only handles 50 kW by default. Customers have the option to upgrade it to handle 150 kW.
The counter-argument is that Tesla is already pushing ~670A through the fairly flexible and modestly slim V3 charging cables and ~800A isn’t that much more. Seems doable with cables not worse than the existing 500A liquid-cooled CCS ones.More on topic, do we have any hard evidence that Tesla isn't incorporating a similar system in these new packs and using an 800+V architecture for MS/MX/R2/CT? Obviously, Tesla lists only 450V nominal in the Owner's Manual, but 350kW from V4 Superchargers (at ~400V) is going to need more than 800A, which is a lot to ask of a cable that is manageable by the full spectrum of consumers.
The highest current I’ve seen reported or on video captures of V3 charging sessions is about 670A although it wouldn’t surprise me if they go a bit higher at ~10% SOC for a short time.Do you know what is the limit of current on the current V3s? Isn’t it the max current right now around 700A-800A when at 250kW, low SoC?
V3 amperage is high 600's for the Model 3/Y packs at low SOC. I extrapolated out the data and it'd be right at 700A at <3% SOC and 250kW, but that's a very momentary peak before it quickly decreases and would be requested by the car only under very rare thermal conditions. 650A is more typical for 250kW in a M3/MY and that's only for a few minutes at best.Do you know what is the limit of current on the current V3s? Isn’t it the max current right now around 700A-800A when at 250kW, low SoC? I haven’t gone to look at your tables…. But in any case with (perhaps) 25% higher voltage with the Plaid, wouldn’t that be just ~10% more current at 350kW? The V3 cables as is are pretty svelte…would they even have to get thicker for V4 (maybe to enable Cybertruck, they would…not sure what the exact plan is there)?
But remember Joules First Law (P=I^2R). If the amperage goes up by 23% [800/650] the thermal cooling requirement goes up by 51% [800^2/650^2]. That's not trivial.The counter-argument is that Tesla is already pushing ~670A through the fairly flexible and modestly slim V3 charging cables and ~800A isn’t that much more. Seems doable with cables not worse than the existing 500A liquid-cooled CCS ones.
Yeah you are right that we are looking at something like 108-110 series cells based on the data so far. The 25% was based on the old speculation.I think the Plaid pack is only about 15% higher voltage.
Since most other threads on the “new” Model S refresh (as of early 2021) are busy discussing the most obvious changes to the interior, I thought the advancements to the battery cells and pack architecture deserved a separate thread of its own.
What we know for sure:
1. Per the shareholder deck posted on Tesla’s investor relations site, the “both the battery pack and modules have now been fully redesigned” (see page 9)