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New 60 can be charged to 100% daily without harming long-term battery

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by MountainRoad, Jun 14, 2016.

  1. MountainRoad

    MountainRoad Member

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    I asked the product specialist at my Tesla SC today whether the new 60 and 60D could be charged daily to 100% without harming the battery pack's long-term performance.

    She said that because there is actually a 75 kWh battery pack in the new 60 and 60D, there is no harm in charging to 100% (of the software-limited capacity, which is just 80% of the real 75 kWh battery capacity) in contrast to the previous recommendation that owners of models with 85 kWh limit the number of times they charge their cars to 100% capacity.

    Has anyone else been able to confirm this?

    This question is particularly significant to me as I am deciding between purchasing a used 2015 70D or a new 60D. I would rarely charge the used 70D past 80-90% if that is the recommended usage, so a 60D charged to 100% daily could provide me the same (or better?) range day-to-day. Am I missing something?
     
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  2. Skione65

    Skione65 Member

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    Good news then. So what does this do to range? (i.e. What is the range charged to 100% as opposed to 80%)? Is the range listed on the Tesla Configurator page showing the 100% or 80% charge?


    Ski
     
  3. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    This is true if they locked the capacity the same way they did with the S40 (which was by locking the top end of the battery, such that it is never fully charged). However, it is unclear if Tesla will do this with the new 60D (or whether they did that with the software limited 70Ds).
     
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  4. ggr

    ggr Roadster R80 537, SigS P85 29

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    I think they would take away the top end, as they did in the past. Here's my reasoning. Suppose they took away the bottom instead, so fully charge the battery, but not allow you to use the bottom end. It's common knowledge that on the unlimited (well, on all the batteries they already limit the top and bottom to some extent) you can drive to zero and still get a little further. So, would they give you "a little further"? How much? A bit of harmless experimentation would very quickly reveal exactly how much, and then people would start driving to that limit instead of "0".

    Also, it would supercharge faster.

    Also, in the Roadster 3.0, the "standard" charge takes away from the top end, so I assume they'd do that for the limited S as well.
     
  5. metier

    metier Member

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    Then would this also charge faster to 100% or would it still slow down after 80% charge
     
  6. glhs272

    glhs272 Unnamed plug faced villian

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    #6 glhs272, Jun 14, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2016
    If they set "max charge" of the 60kwh to 80% SOC (state of charge), then yes this would be very ideal. You could charge daily to 100%, as that would be the same thing as charging a 75kwh car to 80%. I have to assume they will set it up this way, to do otherwise would just be silly and stupid. It will also give you the benifit of very fast supercharing times. It would be the same as charging the 75kwh car from 0 to 80% which is the sweet spot for charging (least amount of taper). Unlike my 60 where 80% and higher is heavily tapered and charges painfully slow.

    However, one thing worth mentioning. Charging to 100% doesn't harm the battery, it will just lead to a slightly higher degradation over the course of years. You could charge your battery to 100% and leave it there for years (with the car truely off, such as having the 12 volt battery disconnected), it will be fine. Tesla doesn't really charge to 100% anyway. You could run your battery down until the car stops moving and leave it that way for YEARS, it will be fine (that would kill your 12 volt battery unless you disconnected it). In fact you might even be able to run the battery cells all the way down to ZERO VOLTS, and leave it connected to a load (such as a resistor) and leave it that way for over a YEAR and it may charge right back up with remarkably little degradation (perhaps 6%). This has been done on individual cells anyway.
     
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  7. David99

    David99 Active Member

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    For many reasons it would be good to limit the top end. It would allow faster Supercharging. It helps battery life. It would keep regen consistent, regardless of state of charge.
     
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  8. S4WRXTTCS

    S4WRXTTCS Active Member

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    With all the available information we have so far it looks like it's limited at the top end.

    So you're better off buying a new 60D than a used 70D, and I say this a 70D owner. Day to day use case I hardly charge above the number of miles you get at 100%.
     
  9. Snerruc

    Snerruc Member

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    On another thread a Tesla employee said they were going to limit charging to the bottom 80%. He did not know if they would use software to duplicate the charge curve for a regular 60kWh battery.
     
  10. S4WRXTTCS

    S4WRXTTCS Active Member

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    They're not going to mess with the charge curve. But, they likely will use the charge curve to determine when to stop the charge along with other methods.
     
  11. MountainRoad

    MountainRoad Member

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    Has anyone with the software limited 70 D been able to test this? Is this something that could be calculated by the rate of charge?
     
  12. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    The ability to supercharge fast with no taper to 100% on the new 60 is huge benefit. This means you get to 200+ miles in about 40 minutes or less all the time.

    Of course someone should check it out.
     
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  13. David99

    David99 Active Member

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    That's not going to happen. The charge rate at a Supercharger starts to go down much much earlier than at 80%.
     
  14. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    The difference between a classic 60 reaching 100% and a 75 charging to 80% should be I guess 30 minutes or more.

    That's my point.
     
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  15. ggnykk

    ggnykk Active Member

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    If you are deciding between the 70 kwh battery from 2015 vs the new 60 kwh battery. Of course you should go with the new 60. 70 kwh from 2015 is a 70 kwh battery that is Not software limited (100% available), while the new 60 kwh is a 75 kwh battery that is software limited (80% available)
     
  16. Boatguy

    Boatguy Member

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    That's the key. If the took the unused capacity out of the top, those cars would always charge slower at the SCs which would be bad for everybody.
     
  17. davidc18

    davidc18 Member

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    There is nothing in the owners manual or in the warranty information that mentions any issues or problems with charging to 100%. There are several references to problems with running the battery to 0%.
     
  18. Canuck

    Canuck Active Member

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    Tesla removed the warnings about charging to 100% because of what happened to Nissan and others, and replaced it with the slider and "daily driving range" option. That's because when a car has different charge levels the EPA averages the two levels. This was done on the 2011-2012 Leaf and the 2012-2014 RAV4 EV, to name a couple of examples. Nissan removed the 80% charge option in response, and sacrificed battery health for higher EPA numbers.

    Info: When Balancing Occurs, and Pack Maintenance

    Leaving MX at home for several weeks - plug in or unplugged in garage?
     
  19. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    It is chemistry that explains why a lithium ion battery degrades more rapidly at 100% SOC (if left there) and also more rapidly if it is more deeply cycled (range between low and high SOC):
    How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University

    High SOCs (as well as high temperatures) accelerates the rate of battery chemical reactions. On the plus side it gives more performance (see "max battery" mode), but on the negative side it also accelerates the reactions that lead to battery degradation.

    That's why Tesla had the charge limit slider in the first place (because it is bad for battery health for a battery to be at 100% SOC for long periods of time). Tesla's warranty does not cover degradation in explicitly (it only covers degradation indirectly as a result of a defect leading to more degradation that expected out of the given usage).
     
  20. idoco

    idoco Member

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    Easy way to check if you have access to a new 60. Charge to 100%. If top end limited you won't get the regen unavailable/limited warning you get at 100%. If bottom limited you should see the regen warning.
     
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