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New 60 can be charged to 100% daily without harming long-term battery

MountainRoad

Member
May 25, 2016
89
124
Colorado
I asked the product specialist at my Tesla SC today whether the new 60 and 60D could be charged daily to 100% without harming the battery pack's long-term performance.

She said that because there is actually a 75 kWh battery pack in the new 60 and 60D, there is no harm in charging to 100% (of the software-limited capacity, which is just 80% of the real 75 kWh battery capacity) in contrast to the previous recommendation that owners of models with 85 kWh limit the number of times they charge their cars to 100% capacity.

Has anyone else been able to confirm this?

This question is particularly significant to me as I am deciding between purchasing a used 2015 70D or a new 60D. I would rarely charge the used 70D past 80-90% if that is the recommended usage, so a 60D charged to 100% daily could provide me the same (or better?) range day-to-day. Am I missing something?
 

Skione65

Active Member
May 5, 2016
1,560
814
Kentucky
I asked the product specialist at my Tesla SC today whether the new 60 and 60D could be charged daily to 100% without harming the battery pack's long-term performance.

She said that because there is actually a 75 kWh battery pack in the new 60 and 60D, there is no harm in charging to 100% (of the software-limited capacity, which is just 80% of the real 75 kWh battery capacity) in contrast to the previous recommendation that owners of models with 85 kWh limit the number of times they charge their cars to 100% capacity.

Has anyone else been able to confirm this?

This question is particularly significant to me as I am deciding between purchasing a used 2015 70D or a new 60D. I would rarely charge the used 70D past 80-90% if that is the recommended usage, so a 60D charged to 100% daily could provide me the same (or better?) range day-to-day. Am I missing something?

Good news then. So what does this do to range? (i.e. What is the range charged to 100% as opposed to 80%)? Is the range listed on the Tesla Configurator page showing the 100% or 80% charge?


Ski
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,982
6,094
I asked the product specialist at my Tesla SC today whether the new 60 and 60D could be charged daily to 100% without harming the battery pack's long-term performance.

She said that because there is actually a 75 kWh battery pack in the new 60 and 60D, there is no harm in charging to 100% (of the software-limited capacity, which is just 80% of the real 75 kWh battery capacity) in contrast to the previous recommendation that owners of models with 85 kWh limit the number of times they charge their cars to 100% capacity.

Has anyone else been able to confirm this?

This question is particularly significant to me as I am deciding between purchasing a used 2015 70D or a new 60D. I would rarely charge the used 70D past 80-90% if that is the recommended usage, so a 60D charged to 100% daily could provide me the same (or better?) range day-to-day. Am I missing something?
This is true if they locked the capacity the same way they did with the S40 (which was by locking the top end of the battery, such that it is never fully charged). However, it is unclear if Tesla will do this with the new 60D (or whether they did that with the software limited 70Ds).
 
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ggr

Expert in Dunning-Kruger Effect!
Supporting Member
Mar 24, 2011
7,015
28,104
San Diego, CA
This is true if they locked the capacity the same way they did with the S40 (which was by locking the top end of the battery, such that it is never fully charged). However, it is unclear if Tesla will do this with the new 60D (or whether they did that with the software limited 70Ds).
I think they would take away the top end, as they did in the past. Here's my reasoning. Suppose they took away the bottom instead, so fully charge the battery, but not allow you to use the bottom end. It's common knowledge that on the unlimited (well, on all the batteries they already limit the top and bottom to some extent) you can drive to zero and still get a little further. So, would they give you "a little further"? How much? A bit of harmless experimentation would very quickly reveal exactly how much, and then people would start driving to that limit instead of "0".

Also, it would supercharge faster.

Also, in the Roadster 3.0, the "standard" charge takes away from the top end, so I assume they'd do that for the limited S as well.
 

glhs272

Unnamed plug faced villian
Aug 21, 2013
911
580
Burlington, WI
If they set "max charge" of the 60kwh to 80% SOC (state of charge), then yes this would be very ideal. You could charge daily to 100%, as that would be the same thing as charging a 75kwh car to 80%. I have to assume they will set it up this way, to do otherwise would just be silly and stupid. It will also give you the benifit of very fast supercharing times. It would be the same as charging the 75kwh car from 0 to 80% which is the sweet spot for charging (least amount of taper). Unlike my 60 where 80% and higher is heavily tapered and charges painfully slow.

However, one thing worth mentioning. Charging to 100% doesn't harm the battery, it will just lead to a slightly higher degradation over the course of years. You could charge your battery to 100% and leave it there for years (with the car truely off, such as having the 12 volt battery disconnected), it will be fine. Tesla doesn't really charge to 100% anyway. You could run your battery down until the car stops moving and leave it that way for YEARS, it will be fine (that would kill your 12 volt battery unless you disconnected it). In fact you might even be able to run the battery cells all the way down to ZERO VOLTS, and leave it connected to a load (such as a resistor) and leave it that way for over a YEAR and it may charge right back up with remarkably little degradation (perhaps 6%). This has been done on individual cells anyway.
 
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S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,728
6,881
Snohomish, WA
With all the available information we have so far it looks like it's limited at the top end.

So you're better off buying a new 60D than a used 70D, and I say this a 70D owner. Day to day use case I hardly charge above the number of miles you get at 100%.
 

Snerruc

Active Member
Apr 16, 2016
1,013
1,592
Palm Bay
On another thread a Tesla employee said they were going to limit charging to the bottom 80%. He did not know if they would use software to duplicate the charge curve for a regular 60kWh battery.
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,728
6,881
Snohomish, WA
They're not going to mess with the charge curve. But, they likely will use the charge curve to determine when to stop the charge along with other methods.
 

MountainRoad

Member
May 25, 2016
89
124
Colorado
This is true if they locked the capacity the same way they did with the S40 (which was by locking the top end of the battery, such that it is never fully charged). However, it is unclear if Tesla will do this with the new 60D (or whether they did that with the software limited 70Ds).

Has anyone with the software limited 70 D been able to test this? Is this something that could be calculated by the rate of charge?
 

Electroman

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Aug 18, 2012
6,395
7,532
TX
The ability to supercharge fast with no taper to 100% on the new 60 is huge benefit. This means you get to 200+ miles in about 40 minutes or less all the time.

Of course someone should check it out.
 
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David99

Active Member
Jan 31, 2014
4,856
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Brea, Orange County
The ability to supercharge fast with no taper to 100% on the new 60 is huge benefit. This means you get to 200+ miles in about 40 minutes or less all the time.

Of course someone should check it out.

That's not going to happen. The charge rate at a Supercharger starts to go down much much earlier than at 80%.
 

Electroman

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Aug 18, 2012
6,395
7,532
TX
The difference between a classic 60 reaching 100% and a 75 charging to 80% should be I guess 30 minutes or more.

That's my point.
 
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ggnykk

Active Member
Feb 7, 2016
1,573
806
Earth
I asked the product specialist at my Tesla SC today whether the new 60 and 60D could be charged daily to 100% without harming the battery pack's long-term performance.

She said that because there is actually a 75 kWh battery pack in the new 60 and 60D, there is no harm in charging to 100% (of the software-limited capacity, which is just 80% of the real 75 kWh battery capacity) in contrast to the previous recommendation that owners of models with 85 kWh limit the number of times they charge their cars to 100% capacity.

Has anyone else been able to confirm this?

This question is particularly significant to me as I am deciding between purchasing a used 2015 70D or a new 60D. I would rarely charge the used 70D past 80-90% if that is the recommended usage, so a 60D charged to 100% daily could provide me the same (or better?) range day-to-day. Am I missing something?
If you are deciding between the 70 kwh battery from 2015 vs the new 60 kwh battery. Of course you should go with the new 60. 70 kwh from 2015 is a 70 kwh battery that is Not software limited (100% available), while the new 60 kwh is a 75 kwh battery that is software limited (80% available)
 

davidc18

Active Member
Apr 25, 2015
1,834
1,281
Ft. Lauderdale
There is nothing in the owners manual or in the warranty information that mentions any issues or problems with charging to 100%. There are several references to problems with running the battery to 0%.
 

Canuck

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2013
6,125
5,777
South Surrey, BC
There is nothing in the owners manual or in the warranty information that mentions any issues or problems with charging to 100%.

Tesla removed the warnings about charging to 100% because of what happened to Nissan and others, and replaced it with the slider and "daily driving range" option. That's because when a car has different charge levels the EPA averages the two levels. This was done on the 2011-2012 Leaf and the 2012-2014 RAV4 EV, to name a couple of examples. Nissan removed the 80% charge option in response, and sacrificed battery health for higher EPA numbers.

Info: When Balancing Occurs, and Pack Maintenance

Leaving MX at home for several weeks - plug in or unplugged in garage?
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,982
6,094
There is nothing in the owners manual or in the warranty information that mentions any issues or problems with charging to 100%. There are several references to problems with running the battery to 0%.
It is chemistry that explains why a lithium ion battery degrades more rapidly at 100% SOC (if left there) and also more rapidly if it is more deeply cycled (range between low and high SOC):
How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University

High SOCs (as well as high temperatures) accelerates the rate of battery chemical reactions. On the plus side it gives more performance (see "max battery" mode), but on the negative side it also accelerates the reactions that lead to battery degradation.

That's why Tesla had the charge limit slider in the first place (because it is bad for battery health for a battery to be at 100% SOC for long periods of time). Tesla's warranty does not cover degradation in explicitly (it only covers degradation indirectly as a result of a defect leading to more degradation that expected out of the given usage).
 

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