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New 70D vs CPO P85

Discussion in 'Model S: Ordering, Production, Delivery' started by zer0cool, Apr 26, 2015.

  1. zer0cool

    zer0cool Member

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    So I am in the market for a new car and I have been researching Tesla for some time since my test drive about 2 months ago (tested a regular S85 and was impressed). After the 70D came out, I personally felt that it was clearly the best choice compared with S85, which I was planning to order with fairly light options. A 70D with just about 6 to 7k of options would have everything I would need and the most current technology.

    Now that the CPO site came out, I am debating again... particularly between a new 70D and a 2012/early 2013 P85. Depending on miles/vin, the CPO P85s are just about the same price or a handful of thousands cheaper than a new 70D after incentives, so pricing wise they are right in my range. I personally enjoy performance, driving dynamics, and technology. So now the debate is to find a balance between the 3...

    Obviously the P85's are better in terms of performance but new 70D better in terms of technology. What I would miss out are autopilot and parking sensors. But there are a few other things I am not clear about so could others please help answering these?
    1. I heard that the very early signature P85's had an early suspension that wasnot very good in terms of handling, and that this was changed fairly early. Does that mean all non-signature P85's have the same suspension as the new 70D basically?
    2. Are the wheel lines (lines indicating where you would go) in the reverse camera hardware things or were they added through software update to all cars? Basically would early P85s have them?
    3. I assume these <10000 vin cars would not have folding mirrors, correct?
    4. Any other things I don't know about?

    Thanks for any answers. Also, what would you choose between these two if you are/were in the market? Just want to hear others opinions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    One clarification, the suspension would be the air suspension since almost all P85s comes with that. But given that, has the regular suspension changed?
     
  2. ryanjm

    ryanjm Tesla Podcast Host

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    1) Not sure about this one.

    2) That was a software update, actually! My cousin's Feb. 2013 build P85 (VIN 4xxx) now has it.

    3) Correct. Apparently there is a retrofit, but it's ludicrously expensive.

    4) It's basically range + performance vs. new technology/build quality + a fresh odometer. Definitely plusses and minuses to each. You'll just have to decide what is better for you. Best of luck in your decision and eventual purchase! :smile:
     
  3. zer0cool

    zer0cool Member

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    Thank you.

    The first question is actually the most important one, anyone knows the answer?

    Also are new cars' build quality much higher compared to the earlier cars?
     
  4. gg_got_a_tesla

    gg_got_a_tesla Model S: VIN P65513, Model 3 Res Holder

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    Ryan gave the answers already.

    As for an opinion about the choice, I'd say 70D with the current build quality and all the new tech, hands down. Much more future proof and the performance of the D, even with the 70, is excellent.
     
  5. Spacela

    Spacela Member

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    I think sometime soon after Tesla announced the Plus package in April 2013, they began incorporating some of its suspension improvements to all Model S’s. So I would definitely exclude any vehicles built before then if you want the improved suspension.
     
  6. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    The dual motor is hands down better handling and performance than the rear wheel drive models and I would definitely go for that. I have and 85D but was given a loaner P85 last week. The rear wheel drive can get squirrelly and doesn't have the rock solid definite handling of the D. This is especially noticeable on hard acceleration and cornering. Whatever you do, get the D.
     
  7. MsElectric

    MsElectric Active Member

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    #7 MsElectric, Apr 26, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2015
    IMHO definitely get the 70D. Tesla is apparently making about 20 improvements to the Model S each week so I'd say the 70D is a far vehicle with all the latest refinements. Plus you get AWD and Autopilot.

    If you want to get a CPO, I suggest that you pay just a bit more and get a loaded P85 for around the mid to late 60s. IMHO when you can buy a new 70D neither the CPO S60 or the CPO S85 makes any sense. At least to me...
     
  8. Cyclone

    Cyclone Active Member

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    I was in the same situation as you. Initially I walked away from an inventory S85, Gray, Pano roof, Tech w/ Autopilot, Black leather seats, standing headliner, coil, standard wheels, standard stereo for $82k (after delivery fee) in March. I decided to wait because I preferred gray seats and the black headliner, as well as being interested in dual motor. Then the 70D was announced and my perfect config would be $89.5k (added the upgraded stereo in addition to the seats and headliner). I figured I would wait till June and hope I could get a showroom discount to be around $82k. After the fed tax rebate, that would put me at around $75k. The CPO program offered the car in my sig, a S85, Gray, Pano roof, Tech without parking sensors or folding mirrors, Black leather seats, standard headliner, air suspension, standard wheels and standard stereo for $57k (and no delivery fee). I couldn't pass up a sure $25k savings or maybe a $17.5k savings if I found the right inventory car for a vehicle that met most of my wish list.

    Another Charotte forum member is snagging a fully-loaded 2013 P85 (even has rear child seats) for $66k. If you are interested in a more performance-type drive, these prices could sway you. But if all you are finding is a P85 around the price of a new 70D with your options, then I would favor the 70D. The 85D would give you full performance compared to an older P85, while a 70D will give you the full performance of the 85 you test drove. This likely is enough for a perfect config car and the Autopilot enhancements.

    Hopefully you can find a better matched CPO. If not, I would NOT rush. There will be more CPO cars coming (people are still waiting to upgrade to the dual motor, Autopilot, or X cars) and you might find the right deal by year's end.
     
  9. tga

    tga Active Member

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  10. 3mp_kwh

    3mp_kwh Member

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    #10 3mp_kwh, Apr 26, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2015
    1. Tesla upgraded the arm bushings, in the rear, sometime before VINs of 6000-7000 (later part of Q1 2013). The tricky part is that when they did it, they upgraded the sub-frame. The bushings cannot be pressed out/in, for new ones, because the mount points of the part (the arm) are different. Upgrading is possible, and the "sub-frame" is actually a $2,000 part, if memory serves. One has to replace both arms, and the sub-frame, as components of the car. The "squirm", I think, was a side to side effect, when accelerating (like drag racing) in a straight line. Not sure, but this might have been part of the early wear complaints, too.

    AWD is safer, but usually results in making it very hard to steer a car with the throttle. The vast majority of Tesla drivers have no interest in doing this, don't need to do it, and are perhaps better off with AWD.

    [Me? I would do a P85, over a 70D, all things considered.]
     
  11. MartinAustin

    MartinAustin Active Member

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    What Tesla doesn't seem to be pointing out is the fully-charged range of each car. For example... "this 85KWh car shows 261 miles fully charged." Or, "this 85KWh car shows 255 miles fully charged."

    It is different for every car. It depends on how the original owner treated it.

    Perhaps it doesn't matter to some people, but it probably matters to others. Especially on older OR higher mileage cars.

    The range of a brand-new 70KWh car and a used 85KWh car tend to converge... doesn't make the 85KWh battery look attractive.

    (speaking as the owner of a 85KWh car that's 17 months old)
     
  12. chriSharek

    chriSharek Member

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    If I'm spending this kind of money on a car, I am getting EXACTLY what I want - with 0 miles on the odo (or close to it).

    Looking for a "deal" in $60k+ cars seems like an oxymoron IMHO . . .
     
  13. ChadS

    ChadS Petroleum is for sissies

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    #13 ChadS, Apr 27, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015
    It is a tough call; as others have said there are pros and cons to each and so you will have to decide what is most important to you.

    While I would like AWD and autopilot, I don't personally have a need for them. I have, however, had the need for the extra range on multiple occasions. Yeah, it doesn't sound like much; for day-to-day driving and road trips along a Supercharger route, it doesn't matter. But as soon as you have a destination off the Superchargers, it matters. It may be different where you are, but here in WA there are many places (Olympic Peninsula and Mount Rainier are two examples I have been to) where there are no Superchargers and no plans to place any, ever. We have wanted every mile of range we've had a few times when visiting these places. But Supercharger placement may vary in your area, and you may take different types of trips, so this may not apply to you.

    I have an early car, and have driven a few newer ones. It is true that the older ones have a softer rear suspension. When you push the car you can feel it, no question. However our car is my wife's; aside from freeway on-ramp launches she doesn't push it and is perfectly satisfied with the handling. So it depends on how you drive it. We have not had any wear problems with our tires.
     
  14. Drucifer

    Drucifer Active Member

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    On Friday I put a deposit on a 2013 P85 @ $68.2k with all options except red brake calipers, headliner and subzero (twin chargers, spoiler, paint armor, performance seats, grey 21" wheels, wood, air susp, sound, tech, 3rd row, pano, metallic). To spec the equivalent car as an S85D (similar performance) would be $106.2 plus delivery and then plus $2k for the 2nd charger and $1k for the spoiler - so essentially a $110k car all in.

    So, to save $35k after tax credit, I lose the possibility of autopilot (which I didn't add into the $110k number), all wheel drive and the new car smell. I can live with that.

    Or, looking at it from the 70D standpoint, the car I would build there is $94k + delivery, so I am saving almost $20k after the tax credit on that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    BTW zer0cool, Cyclone and I are also both in Charlotte, NC
     
  15. chriSharek

    chriSharek Member

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    And Pre-Owned only gets a 4 year, 50,000 mile warranty? Come on? Why would you spend $80k+ on a car, cut the warranty in half, and take someone's sloppy seconds?
     
  16. Drucifer

    Drucifer Active Member

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    My last two cars were factory new. In 2 years, I had a 2 year old used car with over 20k miles each time. Why wait? Get the car used right away. :wink:
     
  17. Cyclone

    Cyclone Active Member

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    New car = 4 years/50k bumper-to-bumper from delivery + 8 year/unlimited drivetrain from delivery
    CPO car = 4 years/50k bumper-to-bumper from delivery + 8 year/unlimited drivetrain from first titled

    So in the case of the CPO I bought, I get the same bumper-to-bumper warranty length as a new car buyer, and lose only two years (bought a 2013) on the unlimited mile drivetrain warranty, all while saving $25k. Where am I having my warranty "cut in half to someone's sloppy seconds?" Unless you mean a private-sale preowned vs. new instead of a CPO.
     
  18. MsElectric

    MsElectric Active Member

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    You are right but one drawback with a CPO warranty is that you are not able to extend that CPO warranty. Whereas if you buy the same used car from a private owner you can get whatever is left of the factory warranty and extend that another 4 years.
     
  19. zer0cool

    zer0cool Member

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    Thanks all for your comments. I guess the take away is that it basically it's a matter of personal opinion. For me personally, other than autopilot, sunroof, better seats, and premium audio, all other options are worthless. In fact, the bigger wheels, third row seats (removable I think) are definitely negatives for me since I don't need 3rd row seats so they take up weight and space, and bigger wheels are more expensive to maintain and the tires wear out more easily and are more expensive. I think on a sedan, 20 is kind of the max size... 21 just looks a little too big for me... Even air suspension may be a negative since I generally prefer firmer rides and air suspension is more prone to problems down the line.

    However the most important concern I have about the CPOs is the suspension since I really prefer fairly firm suspensions so the softer early suspension is a no go. I think many have said that the suspension upgrade came somewhere in the 7000's around Apr 2013. So if I decide to go with CPO, I will pay close attention to this. I think some posters have indicated that the new D's handle better. I think that's a big plus for me. Do most agree (for those who have driven both) that the D's handle better? Handling is very important to me (thus the liking of firmer suspensions).

    Another really important consideration is resale value. I have never had a car for more than 4 years and I aim to keep the Tesla for 5 (since it's a really great car). Therefore resale value after say 5 years is very important... It's really hard to gauge how a new 70D vs a CPO P85 would depreciate. On the one hand, P85 has amazing performance and people may well prefer that even after all warranty expires in 5 years, so it total depreciation less. Or another possibility is that Tesla early cars have bad build quality and many things break down after 4 or 5 years and so a 7/8 year-old P85 is essentially worthless... On the other hand, a new 70D will still have 3 years of battery and drive train warranty left after 5 years and has better tech and therefore may be worth more... It's really hard to determine at this point and some of it depends on early car build quality...

    What do others thing on resale value of these two cars?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Is there no way to edit posts on this forum? Typo above, think, instead of thing in the last sentence.
     
  20. stevej119

    stevej119 Member

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    I don't think there's any way of knowing today what the relative value of ANY car will be in five years. Tesla has changed everything. It's a whole new ballgame. Five years from now a brand new ICE luxory car will, IMHO, have far a depreciated value far lower than a five year old luxury ICE today. Will people be buying ICE BMW's and Mercedes' and Lexus' five years from now? Probably, but not nearly as many as are being sold now, and that's directly the result of the change which Tesla is bringing to the automobile industry.


    At the same time, while our Model S's will still be great cars in five years, they won't come close to comparing with what's available five years from now. The 85D already has almost the same 0-60 performance of the P85, so I'm not sure the "amazing performance" of the P will necessarily equate to much of a difference in value in five years. I would caution against buying any high end car, ICE or Electric, with an expectation of significant resale value years down the road. I specifically excluded residual value from my TOC calculations when I made the decision to purchase my Model S, and it's still a bargain and assuages the feelings of guilt I had over spewing emissions into the air during my 190 mile daily commute.
     

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