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New age for old tech? Honda Civic Natural Gas tops Ford Focus Electric as 'Green Car

Discussion in 'News' started by zack, Nov 18, 2011.

  1. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    A great fleet car, where the lack of natural gas fueling infrastructure won't be a problem.

    Depending on criteria, Model S might not be the "Green Car of the Year." Some BEV econobox could be greener; something like the Coda could actually surpass Model S in CO2 saved. Model S should win MT CotY, though; it's not just the best green car, it'll be the best car of 2012.
     
  2. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    I wrote up an analysis of cng cars on my blog.
    They are inferior to EVs.
    If you have a fleet and need to build infrastructure you are much better off building EV infrastructure.

    Compressed Natural Gas | High Speed Charging
    Read and let me know if you disagree.
     
  3. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    You've convinced me. (I was surprised to learn, though, that there's a public CNG station less than a mile from my house.) Makes me wonder why a large chunk of the buses in Boston use CNG. Hopefully they shift over to EV as battery tech matures.
     
  4. VolkerP

    VolkerP EU Model S P-37

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    rich,

    Thank you for your in-depth analysis. Again a big surprise that EVs beat any other propulsion with their efficiency!

    Trying to help improve it:
    make that 12.8 kWh.

    Would be easier to understand if you state the miles per year and your home tariff for electricity and natural gas.

    make that 34 kWh.
     
  5. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    In terms of cost per mile and emissions CNG vehicles are superior to gasoline vehicles and the technology has existed for a long time before EVs became viable.
    They were a reasonable step before EVs became viable, but any new investment in them is investing in an inferior system.
     
  6. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    Thanks Volker! Edits applied.
     
  7. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Yeah, I recall previous analysis concluded the same thing. (Electricity needed to compress negates some of the benefit.)
    By the way, although dated, it might be worth a little visit to this old thread:
    CNG REEVs?
    I still don't understand why we don't see diesel or CNG hybrids... Basically only gas.
    Adding a hybrid drivetrain to a CNG car should increase its' range and efficiency just like it does for gasoline vehicles.
     
  8. VolkerP

    VolkerP EU Model S P-37

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    Perhaps it is too much to ask people go hybrid and then even use an alternative to conventional gasoline. Or car manufacturers think so.
     
  9. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Wow I need to bullet point that write-up. Well done. NG is NG.

    The only thing is...

    That the picture of the blue Roadster tail end is crooked in the frame. It's driving me crazy!
     
  10. GSP

    GSP Member

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    Diesels are expensive, hybrids are expensive, diesel-hybrids are expensive squared. Same goes for CNG or LNG hybrids, and with natural gas cheaper than gasoline or diesel, there is less motivation to conserve. I think this is why. For now, a cheap gasoline engine is the best economic match for a hybrid.

    You are correct about the range and efficiency, of course. Diesel hybrids are available in commercial trucks and busses, where the default powertrain started with a diesel. We should see diesel hybrid cars in Europe someday. Peugeot has announced they plan to sell one.

    GSP
     
  11. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Natural Gas is No Good? No Go?
     
  12. strider

    strider Active Member

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    But diesels are extremely efficient in a narrow rpm range so I would think they would be perfect for the type of hybrid where the engine is acting purely as a generator and not driving the wheels (like on a Prius). Stopping and starting a diesel and running it cold is very expensive efficiency-wise but once you get it running and warmed up it uses very little fuel.

    My guess as to why we haven't seen any diesel hybrids is because everyone's (except maybe Fisker?) following the Prius model of having the engine drive the car so it's stopping and starting and varying rpms all the time.
     
  13. Lloyd

    Lloyd Active Member

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    #14 Lloyd, Nov 19, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2011
    That is by design to allow JET A to be available at a decent price for american air carriers and government uses. Jet A is basically the same product as diesel fuel. For every barrel of crude there is only so much product of each fraction, ie, diesel (Jet A), gas, and heavier products. The american market has been manuvered to using more gas, and ethanol to allow Jet A to go to Aviation and military uses.
     
  14. Tech26

    Tech26 Member

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    #15 Tech26, Nov 20, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2011
    I think you mean "(like on a Volt or Fisker Karma)". You correctly described how the Prius "parallel" hybrid system works in your second paragraph. I also think the diesel would be good for a "series" hybrid power train.

    In the end, anything with a fossil fuel burning engine in it is carrying around boat anchor technology. BEV is the future.

    P.S. I figured out the other way to read your sentence so it makes sense the way you wrote it... Now I'm just too lazy to delete what I wrote and it might be nice to have it for clarity's sake for people who read it the wrong way the first time :wink:
     

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