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New Batteries for Model S

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by daveruns, Feb 23, 2017.

  1. daveruns

    daveruns Member

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    Any information or speculation on when the new 2170 batteries will be available in the Model S? Waiting on upgrading my 2013 Model S and thought I would wait on new batteries (first it was dual motors, then self driving hardware, now battery upgrades). Anyway, expecting lower weight, improved performance, maybe more range, definitely more efficient. Plus, I hate buying old technology and am quite happy with my older S at the moment.
     
  2. davidc18

    davidc18 Active Member

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    based on personal experience, they will be announced just after you purchase.
     
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  3. David99

    David99 Active Member

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    Tesla is known to always push new technology. They change and add hardware all the time without announcing it. Just look at the various steps from the P85, P85+, P85D, P85DL, P90DL, P100DL. Each time you thought you had the fastest car, you were outdone by a new version of the car. There is no doubt Tesla will use the new cells in the Model S, but no one knows when. And they sure will not announce it much in advance.
     
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  4. bob_p

    bob_p Active Member

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    Now that Tesla has announced (but not yet delivered) the 100Ds, it seems unlikely we'll see a 2170 version of the 100 (or any) S/X battery pack any time soon.

    Tesla's priority is to get Model 3 into production and then quickly ramp up production this year and next year. The 2170 batteries are needed for the Model 3.

    Tesla may hold off on 2170 in S/X for a while, exhaust their commitment for the older batteries, and once 2170 production exceeds needs for PowerPack, PowerWall and Model 3, then we could see an S/X battery pack with the 2170s.

    The next big change for Model S is more likely going to be Supercharger V3 support - something I hoped was going to be part of the 100D announcement. But the lack of SC V3 didn't prevent us from order an S 100D with FSD.

    There's always something better coming - and if you wait for that, there'll be something else coming 3 to 6 months later. For us, getting 70 miles more range (than our "classic" S P85), the potential for FSD, plus all of the other features added in the last 4 years - was enough to get us to pull the trigger this time - and soon have the longest range EV...
     
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  5. No2DinosaurFuel

    No2DinosaurFuel Active Member

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    I think the 2170 packs will first be in the model 3 then later migrate to thr model s. Model 3 is suppose to arrive by thr end of the year and if you believe elon's timeline then we know it would way too costly for tesla to spend all those engineering dollars to upgrade the model s pack to 100kWh and then just to change it ans spend more big dollars to make the 2170 into model s pack.

    Also even if theoretically they can swap the 85kWh to 100kWh 2170 cells don't expect to keep free supercharging. They might force you to move to the free 400kWh per year deal.
     
  6. davidc18

    davidc18 Active Member

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    I think it is more likely that the new cells are going immediately into a new P100DL to keep the high end revenue rolling in.
     
  7. EV-lutioin

    EV-lutioin Active Member

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    I tend to agree, it will be important to keep the MS and MX up to snuff. If the M3 has more advanced batteries than the MS/MX it could cannibalize sales. Tesla will need to walk a fine line between making the M3 affordable and compelling while still making the MS/MX seem like they are worth double the price.
     
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  8. Snerruc

    Snerruc Member

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    WK057 has opened a 100 kW pack, and it has 18650 cells.
     
  9. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 918 Hybrid

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    I agree ... Tesla will hold off on new 2170 batteries for the Model S/X until their current obligation to Panasonic is complete. :cool:
     
  10. No2DinosaurFuel

    No2DinosaurFuel Active Member

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    Moving to 2170 cells requires redesign of pack which will cost $. $ tesla dont have now when engineering the manufacturing of the model 3. What is more likely is the 2170 pack will be the same across all platform model s/x/3. That I can believe.

    As for keeping the model s and x up to snuff, I have to disagree. Battery is battery. Battery capacity is where it is at. Whether they are powered with 18650 or 2170 cells, at the end of the day if they perform similarly to the users all they will see is the range and charge rate and longevity. I doubt most customer would even know what 18650 or 2170 are.
     
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  11. EV-lutioin

    EV-lutioin Active Member

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    What the 2170 offers is improved energy density. If energy density is higher it should provide more range since the mass per kWh will be lower. Less weight + same kWh = more range.
     
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  12. David99

    David99 Active Member

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    The new cells are not just different sized. They offer higher energy density and about 1/3 reduction in cost. I'm sure they also beat the old cells in several other attributes. There is no advantages to keep the old cells going. The switch over to the new cells has been planned for a long time and it's just finally happening now that the giga factory has started production. If Tesla can save 30% on each Model S/X battery pack, they will for sure.

    They wouldn't put the new cells in the Powerwall2 if they were worried about not having enough of them. The Powerwall is higher energy density really doesn't matter.
     
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  13. Cloxxki

    Cloxxki Member

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    Of course not.
    The 3 is simply too small to share a battery with S/X. A long shot would be the S/X adopting a 3 pack plus a dummy plate of sorts, and be stuck with <100kWh while the upcoming competition already promised 130kWh.

    Slightly more doable might be if Model 3 packs were designed around modules that could be fit into S/X in a different layout.
    Say, the modules are slightly rectagal. Totally hypothetical example: In Model 3, two long sides fit next to each other five short ones in its length, in S/X three short sides on the width, 4 long ones on the lenght. 10 vs 12. And S/X have those extra two stacked up front. All this achieves is having uniform modules. If the sizing and wiring totally works out, it might be worth it to Tesla.
    I don't see a 2170 100kWh pack offering much of an advantage for the owner over the 18650 one. Some weight would be saved fr sure. It's much cheaper, and Tesla looks set to keep the difference until a competitor makes them price to the broad market, not just how much they can get away with.
     
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  14. scaesare

    scaesare Active Member

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    The real question, IMO is: "If/when the next gen battery chemistry be utilized in the S/X platform?" (Gen4)

    The gains of increased energy density can be realized even in the existing 18650 cell format. They may be reasons for using that format for some time prior to a switch to 2170 (or even for the remainder of the platform life).

    Factors may include: not having to redesign the modules/pack, utilizing existing cell manufacturing lines, retaining compatibility with existing parts, honoring commitments with partners, not competing for GF production capacity, etc...
     
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  15. Cloxxki

    Cloxxki Member

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    Excellent point.
    While Tesla may have a billion or so 18650's to take off Panasonic's hands to cover tooling cost or whatever, if indeed there is a better chemistry, it may well be worth implementing it here to achieve kWh cost reduction and maximum pack size. Or, super-fast charging.
    Options:
    A- 18650's with a new chemistry gain some 10% energy density at limited additional cost. All packs moveup in size without changes in pack assembly.
    B- 18650's with a new chemistry maintain density but improve charging speed by 100%. Which actually is not that crazy, seeing low cost cars short range already achieving significantly higher charge rates than Tesla. When scaled to 100kWh, easily twice its speed. Right now SUC"s only offfer 150kW I believe, but that would speed up charging already a lot, help congestion.
     
  16. LargeHamCollider

    LargeHamCollider Battery cells != scalable

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    I don't expect the 2170 cells to come to the S/X for a couple years, which coincides with what Elon tweeted about the 100kWh pack being the biggest they'll offer for a while. The 2170s are newer and are rumored to have energy density 5.5% higher, but they will likely have slightly lower power density due to the larger form factor, power density is more important in S/X then in the 3.
     
  17. EV-lutioin

    EV-lutioin Active Member

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    That sounds interesting.... which cars have "significantly higher charge rates than Tesla", I thought Tesla was the leader in fast charging.
     
  18. scaesare

    scaesare Active Member

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    I'm not sure where these numbers are coming from. JB Straubel has been quoted as saying the energy density improvement from original Model S packs* to Model 3 is ~30%.

    *Not necessarily the more recent 2014 packs with an already-improved silicon anode chemistry which represented a ~6-7% jump.
     
  19. scaesare

    scaesare Active Member

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    On a raw throughput basis, they are. From a "C-ratio" standpoint, however, there are some other packs that charge faster. There are likely tradeoffs in other areas, such as energy density or cycle life, as a result.
     
  20. EV-lutioin

    EV-lutioin Active Member

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    Which packs on which cars?
     

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