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New battery option 70D, is 105D next?

Discussion in 'Model X' started by vandacca, Apr 8, 2015.

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  1. vandacca

    vandacca Active Member

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    #1 vandacca, Apr 8, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2015
    The Tesla Motors Website has been re-designed and a new 70D option is available (60 appears to be gone). There were discussions (speculation?) that Tesla was moving to a new battery cell that is slightly larger than the original cells, thereby reducing weight (due to less packaging) while keeping capacity the same. That would also provide the option to increase capacity, while keeping the weight the same (and everything in between).

    I wonder if they'll be upgrading the 85kWh packs too?
     
  2. dirkhh

    dirkhh Middle-aged Member

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    My speculation is that the 70D still uses the same cells, just more of them. Which would mean that 105 is still not quite possible within the space constraints given...
     
  3. CarlK

    CarlK Member

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    85 will likely go up some. There is too small a gap between 70 and 85.
     
  4. timf

    timf Member

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    I think it's a pretty safe bet the 70D is being released in advance of it being the base Model X model. Even though Elon played a bit coy in interviews and said it "could" be offered on the Model X, I don't see any other reason behind the timing of this other than to be in preparation for Model X.

    Someone did the math elsewhere that if the 70kWh pack does use the same form factor of the 60kWh pack only with upgraded cells, that would work out to a proportional increase to about 99kWh for the 85kWh pack. They would probably just call it 100D to keep the numbers nice and round.
     
  5. vandacca

    vandacca Active Member

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    If they did come out with a 100D, what would be the estimated range. I understand that if they can get beyond 300miles, they would qualify for further energy incentives.

    Also notice that there is only 1 option now for rear-wheel drive: 85. I predict that all Tesla vehicles will be AWD in the future.
     
  6. trialcritic

    trialcritic Member

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    I suspect that they need about 100kwh in Model X to get 300 mile range as it has 10% more weight than Model S. I know it sounds silly, but I am hoping and wishing for the range to become 400 miles. Probably in about 5 years, I guess.
     
  7. CarlK

    CarlK Member

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    Elon has said 300~350 real range is the sweet spot. Anything more will add cost and weight with diminished return. The strategy seems to be more and quicker SC to make long trip more convenient in the future.
     
  8. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    It doesn't mean anything other than 60 not being enough for the base X.
     
  9. scaesare

    scaesare Active Member

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    I tend to agree with this. Rolling out a new battery chemistry would be a rather big deal I suspect. There would be some significant logistics and cost issues maintaining two different cell types for different packs destined for the same platform, etc...

    Given that we already know that the 60kW pack simply omits some cells to reduce the capacity, it would be far simpler to omit slightly fewer cells in the already proven design than to implement a new chemistry in the low-end car.

    That's not to say they couldn't have already switched everything over to a newer higher-capacity chemistry, and be omitting cells in the new 70 as well as omitting cells in the 85KW pack to keep it's capacity down... but that's seems terribly unlikely. I give it precisely a 0.0394% chance of being true.
     
  10. vandacca

    vandacca Active Member

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    I agree that upcoming Tesla battery packs do not have a new battery chemistry. There are a lot of changes possible in Lithium ion batteries (e.g. cathode, anode, chemistry, shape, etc.) and I suspect that if there are changes, they will be subtle and improve things like charge time, longevity (i.e. increase number of charge cycles), capacity, weight, etc.

    With regards to the latest battery changes, I heard from a source who spoke to a Tesla employee that the Panasonic batteries in upcoming vehicles were a larger cell in order to reduce weight. This is obviously hear-say, so take it for what its worth.
     
  11. 1208

    1208 Active Member

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    As I said in another thread, I think it does mean a 100D for the X
     
  12. dirkhh

    dirkhh Middle-aged Member

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    So you assume the X will not share the same size battery with the Model S?
     
  13. Andex23

    Andex23 Member

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    I think an intriguing aspect might be the performance characteristics of a P1xxD. Elon already hinted in a tweet about the 2.8s possibility. A larger battery pack in the same space could allow for these improvements. I think it is just a matter of time that the 85 is upgraded, and doing it inline with the X reveal would make sense.
     
  14. airj1012

    airj1012 Active Member

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    #14 airj1012, Apr 8, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2015
    They already have these logistical issues. There are battery packs A-D and maybe even more versions that that now. I think its almost a certain that they will have a larger capacity for Model X. With the extra weight and towing capacity, they will need some extra juice. Tesla has already said that they're increased efficiencies in their cells. Its also 3 years later after the first Model S has rolled off the floor. I see no reason why they wouldn't have been able to make some sort of increase in that amount of time. Granted the 70D could a scaled back version of the 85D, which is how the scaled back the 40, but someone else put the math together today as well.

    "If you take a 60kwh pack and replace the current 3100mAh cells with the newly available 3600mAh cells, you get exactly 70kWh. Now, if you do the same thing to an 85kWh pack, you get a 100kWh pack."

    Again, I think there is no reason why they couldn't or shouldn't increase the capacity. I think the launch of the Model X will provide milestone for the greater range, but it will then be offer to Model S as well.
     
  15. scaesare

    scaesare Active Member

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    Do you have a source for this?

    It's even simpler to fill in the holes in the existing modules with the same cells you use everywhere else. Occam's Razor and all that.
     
  16. airj1012

    airj1012 Active Member

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    No but I think it was in one of their earnings call. It wasn't the last one though. It's been a while...
     
  17. scaesare

    scaesare Active Member

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    Hmm, I don't recall ever hearing of, or seeing discussion about, their current cells being more efficient, than previous versions. As a matter of fact, Tesla has been largely silent on their cell details...
     
  18. Aljohn

    Aljohn Member

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    From an X standpoint -- note also on the Model S design Center there is NO LONGER any single motor options. Everything is Dual Motor. Also there are a number of new Colors available. I did "my standard" P85 Configuration to gain a sense of the Model X pricing. The P85D config I have been using (21 Tires, 3 Gen Seats, upgraded interior, metallic paint, carbon fiber interior, upgraded sound, air suspension -- no pano roof) and found the actual cash price was lower. It seems the P85D Package dropped in its base price slightly, and they split out the Tech Package into two options - autopilot and enhanced features.

    It seems Tesla is now aligning the Model S Chassis and the "expected" Model X to be on a similar chassis regardless of options. Please check my math. They also changed the site to show a price after incentives and gas savings, so the REAL cash price is at the bottom of the column now.
     
  19. dirkhh

    dirkhh Middle-aged Member

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    Quite a few people seem to be confused about this. There still is a single motor / RWD S85. You just have to FIRST select the S85D, THEN you can go back to select only one motor and get a $5k "credit" for that.
    Not the most intuitive design in the "design studio" :-/
     
  20. Foodnut

    Foodnut Member

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    The 70D introduction is definitely a preparation for the upcoming ModelX.
    On the Model S 70D, EPA is 240 miles... (vs. 85D with 270). 35 miles range worth $10k? I think many more will opt for 70D now for ModelS.

    Based on 10% weight gain, and less aerodynamic, would it be reasonable to speculate that the Model X 70D would get ~220 miles range?

    If they introduce the Model X 100D, I'm hoping for 300 miles range.
     

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