That article at the top of this thread said the new rules take effect in 2020. How can they hold him/her to a code that isn't even effective until next year?
Bruce.
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New Cal fire code for Powerwalls?
- Thread starter Odiemac
- Start date
That article at the top of this thread said the new rules take effect in 2020. How can they hold him/her to a code that isn't even effective until next year?
Bruce.
Local jurisdictions can do whatever they want.
Ulmo
Active Member
I'm having trouble tracking down the laws/regulations on this. I found this file, in case anybody finds it useful, but I don't know if it applies; could someone verify for me?
http://ulmo.solar/storage/2020-NPFA-855.pdf
Ulmo
Active Member
Here is a UL webinar about UL9540A.
Still to be seen is UL9540, and whether any text is involved, and what the California regulations are, which I have not been able to find.
Still to be seen is UL9540, and whether any text is involved, and what the California regulations are, which I have not been able to find.
The PW2 datasheet states that it is compliant with UL9540 so it can be considered a pre-engineered system, and may not fall under to 50kWh rules, and instead be under the 250kWh rules. That would allow multiple PWs to be installed, but still doesn't get around the 3' off the wall rule.
3’ for installation inside. Exterior installation is even further from walls if I read that correctly.
I think these requirements will be a big obstacle for many who think of installing more than one battery. Unless local jurisdictions exempt that part.
No way I would give up a parking space in the garage just to have battery backup.
Wow, those new building codes seem quite overkill! Our two Powerwalls are on the exterior of our house right next to the front door, in public view. Glad we got them installed when we did. Maybe it's not a bad idea for anyone considering Powerwalls to move ahead sooner rather than later.
jkoya
NA2 NSX
I agree. If I have to install the powerwalls 3' away from a wall, I'm definitely dropping down to one......
Am I the only one finding it ironic that a product named Powerwall is no longer supposed to be mounted on a wall?
I guess I better start parking my 150kW worth of Tesla cars outside the garage 3 ft from the nearest wall 
I read through NFPA-855 2020 today, and am struggling to understand how this would impact most Powerwall setups.
Since it is UL9540, you can have up to 250kWh. An individual installation under 50kWh can still be wall mounted. The only potential “gotcha” is if you have four units or more you would need to break them into groups of three, spaced 3’ apart.
Someone from Tesla was on the committee for 855, so I am sure they planned around it.
The PowerPack will be a little different though, and it looks like San Francisco is applying some of their own high-rise regulations on having the system under 75’ high. (I really hope that one can be dealt with, because allowing a powerwall array for an elevator machine room would be a huge safety improvement for residential high-rises!)
Since it is UL9540, you can have up to 250kWh. An individual installation under 50kWh can still be wall mounted. The only potential “gotcha” is if you have four units or more you would need to break them into groups of three, spaced 3’ apart.
Someone from Tesla was on the committee for 855, so I am sure they planned around it.
The PowerPack will be a little different though, and it looks like San Francisco is applying some of their own high-rise regulations on having the system under 75’ high. (I really hope that one can be dealt with, because allowing a powerwall array for an elevator machine room would be a huge safety improvement for residential high-rises!)
Wonder if a curb is a 'wall', so you have to park in the middle of the street... (yeah, that was a stretch).I guess I better start parking my 150kW worth of Tesla cars outside the garage 3 ft from the nearest wall
This is insane... first they cut the power, then people trying to be self-sufficient can't even install batteries unless they have a backyard and spend a megabuck on copper for cabling. What's the max distance for PW from the meter/breaker panel? Probably less than this spec...
Good grief, for sure.
I'm thinking about solar roof for our garage since we are completely shaded for the home itself. Would require special permission from HOA, but they might go for it as test model for re-roofing. Thinking about sales pitch to them and alternatives, does anyone know if there is potential for the idea of tower poles with arrays arranged in fibonacci sequence on the pole? I saw an article somewhere a teenager proposed (or built) one.
I am having trouble understanding where the new code would cause an issue; @SF Contractor’s Installation has a few issues (most notably the stuff in front of the electrical, and potentially the height of the PWs, but 1206.2 really only requires a permit of the installation if it is over 20kWh— up to 600kWh can work. The two modules don’t need to be separated by 3’ since they are UL listed. They don’t need to be in a dedicated room, just a dedicated space.
BUT, retroactively applying a 20kWh threshold based on the 2020 code would be an error on SFDBS’ part. The intent of the new code is met, although some extra requirements could reasonably be imposed on the project.
BUT, retroactively applying a 20kWh threshold based on the 2020 code would be an error on SFDBS’ part. The intent of the new code is met, although some extra requirements could reasonably be imposed on the project.
This is the general wisdom, but its not actually true. However its mostly true. One of the reasons we pick our battles on this. I've never heard of this severe over reaction from an AHJ either.
In other times when I have had an issue with code officials, I have brought in the CALfire Division Chief of codes and standards and asked him for his interpretation of the intent of this code. Other fire officials usually respect his opinion, as he is basically their higher authority.
CALSSA also may have some advice if you haven't tried them. They have a good webinar to educate the officials that I'll bet you could share with them, though it may not be the authority they are looking for.
Now SF may believe they have that good reason, so the fight might be larger than you want to have honestly. Lawsuit isn't something to throw around lightly, but its in the cards if you want to pursue it. Not advice either way.
As far as the height of the installation, My understanding is as long as you have an accessible AC disconnect below 6'7" the code is satisfied.
No - they're installed in NZ, and throughout Asia, often as power backup for cellphone towers - and lately in South Africa also.
Theres a list of international partners at the bottom of Redflow – Sustainable Energy Storage, if you get in contact I'm sure they'll be only too happy to tell you who in USA to contact.
jkoya
NA2 NSX
Any update on this? In addition to the process problems with San Francisco's actions (applying the new code both prematurely and retroactively), it seems to me that the 2019 California Code changes don't actually disallow the installation:
- 2019 California Residential Code R327.2 requires stationary battery storage systems to be listed to UL 9540. The Powerwall 2 lists UL 9540 Certification on its spec sheet. No spacing requirements are imposed by R327.
- The 2019 CRC is supposed to have all requirements relevant to one and two family dwellings. But if the 2019 California Fire Code also applies, the problematic spacing requirements are in 1206.2.8.3. And one of the exceptions to 1206.2.8.3 is for listed stationary storage battery systems up to 250 kWh, which 1206.2.10.1 clarifies means listed to UL 9540.
So the 2019 CFC 1206.2.8.3 spacing requirements only kick in with 13 or more Powerwalls. Hopefully San Francisco has figured all this out by now, and this was just an isolated mistake.
Cheers, Wayne
charlesj
Active Member
Let's hope so as I am waiting to have 2 installed and it may drag out into next year.
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
I am in the same boat. Tesla was supposed to install mine next week and now they have staffing issues and have pushed it out after Jan 1.
I told them I was not happy based on this issue (and the tax credit) and asked them to give me a definitive answer on this issue. It's a show stopper for me if I cannot mount them both on my stand alone garage exterior walls.
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