New competition for Tesla, The Jaguar I-Pace

[CalBlue 85D]

• Arguably are one of the leaders in self-driving

Maybe the leader in talking about self driving and selling the idea, but hardly a leader in actually testing or delivering a product. There are lots of true self driving cars testing on the roads today, but sadly Teslas are not among them. The only FSD video they produced is widely assumed to be fake and they couldn't deliver on a promise to demonstrate a cross county drive.

I love my car (especially with the AO lights) but I'm not impressed with the direction they have taken for FSD.

 

[vgrinshpun]

Because it is Tesla forum. Majority of here us are pro-Tesla no matter what.
It's not easy to swallow that iPace is cheaper than X. While having some better tech as well.
The fact that iPace is smaller is a thing, but not THE THING.

It obviously is THE thing. Not many people would agree to pay BMW X6 price for a BMW X3, or Audi Q7 price for Audi Q5. I-pace is ridiculously expensive.

 

[arnis]

@vgrinshpun
Well, if you compare X3 with X6, then actually, X3 has better headroom in the back, but overall,
cabin space is very similar. X6 is slightly elongated for better looks. But X3 has better cargo capacity.

Difference between X3 and X6 is not the measurements, it's the vehicle class, base equipment, materials.

IPace has better price than comparable Tesla Model X 100D with 5 seats.
Work "ridiculously" is unforgivably wrong.
I'm going to state the prices in bold, as some might have skipped that DIY they should have taken.
Jaguar i-Pace 77850€
Model X100D 93100€
20% difference in base price for same range vehicle.

 

[.jg.]

The I-Pace is a fair bit shorter than the Model X or the Model S, which is a consideration here in the UK, where the length of a garage is often only about 5m. The base level 90kWh I-Pace is about £20K cheaper than the base level 100D Model S or 100D Model X. Teslas have the benefit of the Supercharger network but Jaguar have a large well-established dealer network and a more open secondhand market. As has already been discussed, Tesla interiors really don't have the quality apropriate for their price range, unlike the I-Pace interior - but the Teslas win on luggage/cargo space. However, I could see some people in the UK considering a new I-Pace instead of a CPO Model S.

 

[vgrinshpun]

@arnis
The I-pace IS in a different class than Model X. It is similar to a Audi Q5, but tens of thousands of dollars more expensive. Why would anybody choose I-pace over Audi Q5? It IS ridiculously overpriced.

Comparing MX vs. I-pace is ignoring that these are different class vehicles size wise. It is just a fact. If you want to make the case that a smaller vehicle might be a beter choice for some, we are in agreement. This does not mean that one has to pay price of the larger vehicle when buying the smaller one.

 

[vgrinshpun]

And BTW, @arnis, comparing i-pace price to X100D is ridiculous squared. Not only are you comparing across the different class vehicles size-wise, but you are also ignoring significant range advantage of MX 100D. We are talking apples and bananas here.

 

[arnis]

, but you are also ignoring significant range advantage of MX 100D

Again, word "significant" is excessively extreme. And iPace has better range in non-ideal cold conditions. Not by a little.
Difference in cold is larger than difference in ideal scenarios. It's even likely, that range in hot weather will be near identical.
Model X is in every way extremely inefficient vehicle. Starting with battery heating, moving on to HVAC efficiency and cabin insulation, finishing with induction motors.

It appears you try to totally trash iPace for no apparent reason.

 

[vgrinshpun]

@arnis

Apples to apples the range of I-pace is 240 miles as advertised by Jaguar on Their US web site. MX 100D has range of 295 Miles. It is just pure facts that do not look good for I-pace. You are trying to cherry pick them to make I-pace palatable.

An EV can’t really succeed unless it is priced similarly to a comparable ICE. i-pace costs tens of thousand of dollars more than comparable ICE - Audi SQ5, as an example.

If one needs to compare i-pace to a vehicle in different class size wise with much more range, skipping over a comparable range vehicles in the line-up to make it palatable, that just underscores the failure of Jaguar and LG Chem to design EV which would be on par with the peers.

 

[arnis]

And you didn't even consider anything is wrong with 240 miles and 90kWh vs 295 miles and 100kWh

 

[vgrinshpun]

It is unbelievable, @arnis, that you are talking about efficiency and I-pace in one sentence.

It has range comparable to MX 75D (240 miles vs. 237 for X75) which has smaller battery, but weighs hundreds of pounds more and is a much larger vehicle with more than twice of the luggage capacity of I-pace.

Once again it says it all if one needs to massage facts to this extent to make i-pace look good.

 

[arnis]

You call 4% range difference significant?
You must dig deeper into the numbers and technicals before doing what you did...

 

[ZooSean]

For those comparing I pace and Tesla here in Canada, do you consider where to charge other than charge at home? If you no where to charge for long distance trip, then an EV range is useless (300mile or 500 mile whatever is meaningless), and you should consider an ICE car.

Don't tell me the Quick charge L3 infrastructure in Canada is growing up, not only the quality and coverage for those L3 Charging infrastructure has long way to match Tesla super charge network, but also L3 charger here in Canada would charge you 20 CAD per hour which is similar the money you pay for gas, in this case I will go for a gas car..

 

[ebatmobile]

L3 is a joke in Canada. Zero chance I would consider this car or other non-Tesla for several years. If the Powerstream HQ (electric company) cannot even keep their L3 up, I have little confidence in others doing so. Nissan HQ L3 is a bust as well 80% of the time.

 

[ZooSean]

L3 is a joke in Canada. Zero chance I would consider this car or other non-Tesla for several years. If the Powerstream HQ (electric company) cannot even keep their L3 up, I have little confidence in others doing so. Nissan HQ L3 is a bust as well 80% of the time.

and Ontario give million dollar to a garbage company - KSI, not only their quality and service is bad, but also charge fortune per charge. I don't know if Ontario government has T&C with KSI or not..

 

[David29]

I prefer the minimalist/modernist interior of the Tesla models, and as I live in a mid-century home that should be no surprise. The Model 3 is a wonder of modernist design.

Huge buttons, knobs, etc. like that on the Jaguar and Porsche models really turn me off. I'm not a Victorian. The sparsity of visual intrusion in a Tesla is a great part of the appeal for me, in addition to the supercharger network, LOL. Recall that the modernist creed is about people and personalities, not stuff.

Modernism is, among other things, a reaction to Victorian clutter. Plenty of personal transportation alternatives are or will become available in the market to those who prefer a more archaic design, with enough of buttons and knobs to satisfy the most discerning end-user. Hopefully Tesla does not go down that path, although I would make an exception for the inclusion of door pockets on the S.

I like the minimalist design of Tesla, too, but I would sure like a bit more quality in the materials and execution. I am not looking for more knobs and switches, and I think perhaps some of the other commenters in this thread are not, either. But the quality (thickness, softness, appearance, stitching, etc., etc.) of the Model S interior is definitely its weak link compared to competition. When the other manufacturers gear up to sell their electric cars, they won't take the quality down a notch to match Tesla. And Tesla will look cheap by comparison, minimalistic or not.

 

[vgrinshpun]

You must dig deeper into the numbers and technicals before doing what you did...

Let's do that.

Once again Jaguar's and your insistence on comparing vehicles in different classes speaks volumes about the product delivered by Jaguar.

If Jaguar needs to draw comparison with a vehicle that is longer, wider, taller, has more ground clearance, seats more people and weighs 523lbs more to make i-Pace look desirable, especially as far as 0 to 60 mph acceleration goes, it means that their engineering design team failed, full stop. As a cherry on the top, why in a world i-Pace can't be more efficient than a vehicle which weighs 523lbs more, and has larger frontal area?? In fact it has efficiency which is 18.7% **worse** than MX 75D.

All of the data in Table below sourced from a respective manufacturer, or calculated based on such.

 

[pete8314]

Maybe the leader in talking about self driving and selling the idea, but hardly a leader in actually testing or delivering a product. There are lots of true self driving cars testing on the roads today, but sadly Teslas are not among them. The only FSD video they produced is widely assumed to be fake and they couldn't deliver on a promise to demonstrate a cross county drive.

I love my car (especially with the AO lights) but I'm not impressed with the direction they have taken for FSD.

I did say 'arguably' Agree with you, they're the best at marketing it, but unless that step-change that Elon has been alluding to for over a year comes pretty soon, other manufacturers will surpass Tesla's self-driving capability, and that's without the benefit of all the telemetry and fleet learning that Tesla can tap.

 

[David99]

L3 is a joke in Canada.

Not only in Canada, but also in the USA. There are many L3 chargers but they are all in cities or at malls. No one has created a real network, and there is almost nothing along major highways/freeways. Even those that exist only charge at aprox 1/3 of the speed as a Tesla Supercharger.

It's not only a matter of building charging stations. They do not create profit. Gas stations today do not make a profit. The big oil companies do, not the gas station owners. Same is true for charging stations. Selling electricity at a charging station is not a profitable business model. The demand is also far less than gas stations because the majority of charging is done at home. Tesla knew all of that. They knew no one would invest in a charging network, so they had to create their own. The old car companies do not want to spend money on charging stations because they know they are not making a dime on it.

 

[Drone Flyer]

There is NO competition for the Tesla Model S in my view. Nothing comes even close. The Model 3 looks ordinary, The Ioniq doesn't have the range, the Model X looks like an obese Model S and every other EV car out there is ugly!
However, the main underlying reason why I would never have any other EV brand is because of the Supercharging network that Tesla and only Tesla offers. Nothing else comes remotely close!
The other EV cars cannot, reliably. head out on a big trip because it is hit and miss with level 2 and 3 charging.
The other makers do not tell you about charging on trips and I feel sorry for people who bought these "other" brands who plan on using them for a trip.
Sure, if you plan on using the car for in town commuting and only commuting, then fine, they would work for that.
I love the fact that every time I stop at a light for instance, people always give the thumbs up. No other car would get this type of treatment, in my view.

 

[Drone Flyer]

I did say 'arguably' Agree with you, they're the best at marketing it, but unless that step-change that Elon has been alluding to for over a year comes pretty soon, other manufacturers will surpass Tesla's self-driving capability, and that's without the benefit of all the telemetry and fleet learning that Tesla can tap.

Full self driving, legally, is 5 to 10 years away!