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New EPA sticker are announced for feedabck

Discussion in 'Cars and Transportation' started by vfx, Aug 30, 2010.

  1. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    They are looking for comments. Make them there (as well as here).

    There are proposing two types, one with a "grade" and one more like the old horizontal. these a good step (Gallons per 100!) are far from perfect so make your comments heard!

    http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/label.htm
    http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/gas-label-2.htm

    http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/gas-label-1.htm

    EV versions:
    http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/label/images/2010/labels-2-electric.jpg

    http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/label/images/2010/labels-1-electric.jpg

    feedabck?
     
  2. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    Great idea. Since most americans are not very intelligent, this will help in understanding electric vehicle efficiency.
     
  3. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    For the record, if you are inclined to make comments (and I hope some of our smarter posters do!) you should do it ASAP for maximum effect.

    Things to get you thinking.

    Why have an EV be A+? Would a Esclade EV be as good as a Think EV? Should the not give efficiency's for EVs be on a separate scale?

    Some of the graphics are not clear as to what they mean.
     
  4. kgb

    kgb Member

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    #4 kgb, Aug 31, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
    I sent in my comment, and that is exactly what I addressed. I didn't like the "school grading" system. Problems with that include what you mention. Also, a vehicle that gets an A in 2005 may only deserve a C in 2015.

    I suggested to them that they create a formula in which they can plug in the various relevant numbers and obtain a benchmark number. I admit that I stole the idea from the way computer speed is measured, but that idea would work here. As machines get old, their benchmark would remain the same, but newer vehicles would get better benchmarks allowing for fairer comparison. I figure that you'd plug in the estimated number of gallons used in a year, the CO2 emissions, and other pollutants/particles etc... (for electric, you'd substitute kw-h for gallons) And we'd look for benchmark numbers as they trend down to zero.

    I don't know why they didn't ask me for my input before now, I am full of good ideas. ;-)
     
  5. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    ^^^While your idea is good, it is far too complicated for the average person. The school grading system, although very basic, helps EV's because EV efficiency is not going to change much. It does however widen the gap between ICE vehicles and EV's which will hopefully help get more electrics on the road.
     
  6. kgb

    kgb Member

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    ...but it doesn't address the issue of comparing a monster Hummer EV with a huge battery and electric motor to a Think EV. A rating scale is supposed to tell people about the differences between cars so they can make an informed choice. When both the Hummer and Think get an A+, then the rating system fails.
     
  7. mpt

    mpt Electrics are back

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    I don't think they're saying that a hummer with a 9v battery attached to the back wheel will get an A+, it might get a D over a D- for the regular model. {There should be an F for Hummer of course}

    I wrote & suggested that C be the median rather than B- as manufacturers looking to differentiate themselves would prefer to advertise B- over C than B over B- as it's clear more apparent (simpler) that their product is better and it'd require two steps from C to B- to get that which is bonus for us.

    I agree with the rolling average otherwise we'll all end up at B or even A something and it'll become meaningless. The rolling average will result in year-on-year battles for the new A.

    {Total side note: Only members with a three letter handle can be in this thread}
     
  8. shark2k

    shark2k Member

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    Just to be a jerk haha.

    ...So this isn't off topic, I am happy to see they are changing the sticker to hopefully be a little more accurate and to make more sense for EVs and hybrids.

    -Shark2k
     
  9. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Who invited that guy^^^^. Oh wait, he's a shark. You may enter sire...

    So why 2.80 to figure the cost of gas? And why not give to cost of electricity as 13cents per kWh? It's an equally flawed concept.

    I think they should educate people by putting on kWh per mile on the EV sticker Though I like the kWh per 100.
    http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/label/nprm-label2010.pdf

    Also
     
  10. edo

    edo Member

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    #10 edo, Aug 31, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
    just to get back on the three letter handle...

    I'd say the median can be halfway between B- and C+, and (since only one car will have it) give it the B-.

    Here is what I sent:
     
  11. mt2

    mt2 Member

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    #11 mt2, Aug 31, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
    I assume you meant three character handle.

    First, I'm not so sure about showing the fuel costs and savings without a footnote about what exactly that is based on. Two identical cars with labels printed six months apart might have completely different numbers. The discrepancy would be confusing -perhaps misleading - if they don't show that the price for electricity (or other fuel) is the US average at a particular point in time.

    Also, the "savings" amount is, I assume, against the average of all fuel types within the same class of vehicle. But I shouldn't have to assume; it should be stated. And, as manufacturers adopt alternative fuels and / or improve efficiency to improve their grade, the savings will decrease. While I agree with MPT that an arms race over the new "A" is a good thing, it means the EPA will have to rethink the stickers in a decade or so.
     
  12. mpt

    mpt Electrics are back

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    I'm assuming that the grades will be revised along the lines of the model years so manufacturers would quote "Our new more efficient 2011 Hummer has earned an F- over the 2010 model". Except obviously not F... or a Hummer as neither exist.
     
  13. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    #13 vfx, Sep 1, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2010
    I'm not so sure this is true. I don't believe it's a scale like buying a home appliance. Where they compare like models. Is there anything that says they are comparing mid size sedan against mid sized sedan?


    (Where is there character moniker, TEG?)
     
  14. mt2

    mt2 Member

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    My point exactly. You and I made two different assumptions because they don't say.
     
  15. raymond

    raymond Member

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    I'd say there's too many problems with that:

    • Well-to-wheel for ICEs highly depends on where you get your oil from (Iraq? shale?)
    • I currently drive an ICE on LPG (as I understand a waste by-product of the refinement process) which I put to good use instead of an oil company burning it off as a by-product. How does that factor in?
    • Should I get my Tesla, my power supplier is 100% green (it buys green certificates for all the energy it provides me). Does that count as being green (0% CO2) or do we call it what it is: an administrative "trick" of who get's the credits for being green
    • What is "fair" for hybrids? It will be my use of e.g. a Volt (how much do I drive? how often do I (forget to) charge the battery?) that is the main determining factor in its overall efficiency
    • In France 80% of all energy is nuclear. Is that better than gas or coal powered plants? Should an EV in France be 4x better than an ICE, but only 2x as good in Ireland?

    Perhaps in the end, knowing that we never will (because we never can) get it right, a simple A..D (and F for the Hummer) is not such a bad idea after all. And in 2015 and 2020 we'll recalibrate the scales so a 2014 B may become a C in 2015.

    Oh, and to discourage ICEs we'll take the EU approach with large-font bumper stickers with texts like: "Gasoline kills" and "ICE destroys Ice" (as the EU does with smoking warnings)

    Too bad that getting people to do the Right Thing can sometimes be so damned hard!
     
  16. edo

    edo Member

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    Hi Raymond -

    I don't know if you were just on a roll there or something, but I don't think the EPA stickers apply to cars in France or Ireland...

    A standard can be drawn up... especially after the first year of plug-ins when we know how much on average people gas them up.

    Everything will have to be an national average...or at the very least a regional average. They can't change the sticker for each person who walks up to the car.
     
  17. raymond

    raymond Member

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    :) Perhaps. A bit. We also have such labels in The Netherlands (in our case it's A thru G) and that works kinda OK with gasoline and diesel engines. But with plug-in hybrids simple labelling (simple enough for Joe Average to understand) seems almost impossible. And if you want something so you can compare gasoline, plug-in hybrids and EV's I'd say it's near impossible without take a the personal situation of the driver into account.

    Perhaps we can identify 3 or so classes of car use, give them a nice pictogram and for each type of use then determine the A .. G (or A+ .. D-) grade? This may actually be a worthwhile idea. I propose:

    1. Daily use around 25mi
    2. Daily use around 50mi
    3. Daily use around 100mi

    Just a thought.
     
  18. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Well-to-wheel will vary significantly based on power company. Every power company has a different power mix and even with the same mix, the efficiency will vary. The best you can do is use US average since the sticker is a national standard, but there are still other upstream emissions, such as for natural gas (which does have some significant upstream emissions). The US average mix/emissions changes constantly so the sticker would need to constantly be updated to be accurate.

    In the end, the sticker ends up quite worthless for any specific person. The current proposal is to include upstream only in the internet ratings (the idea is probably for it to be interactive by having people enter their zip code and choose their power company, like an existing electricity emissions tool the EPA has online), but specify clearly that the sticker ratings are "tailpipe only".

    The upstream emissions for gasoline would also need to be counted to be fair and this goes against tradition of how fuel economy is measured. The automakers will protest, since this makes them responsible for upstream, which they have no control over. Plug-to-wheel/pump-to-wheel makes sense as a rating because that is what the CAR is about. The rest is controlled by other companies. And the plug-to-wheel/pump-to-wheel efficiency will stay constant as long as you rate it under the same standard.
     
  19. kgb

    kgb Member

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    Exactly what I was saying before (or if I wasn't, it was what I was supposed to be saying). My only concern, again, with the grading system is that all the electric vehicles are getting A's, however they are not the same. An EV that uses 35 kw-h/mi and has no emissions is definitely DIFFERENT than an EV that uses 25 kw-h/mi and has no emissions. That's what I meant by an A in 2010 is different than an A in 2020. By 2020, the same EV will use much fewer kw-h to move it, so it should get a better grade.
     
  20. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    I see your point. One problem is that letter grades do not have enough granularity (all EVs basically get an A, all PHEVs basically get an A-). The other problem is the upper and lower bound may change so you may have to change the standard to accommodate (an A in 2010 is different from an A in 2020, just like how the mpg standard changed in 2008).

    However, I think that the letter grade is based both on emissions (tailpipe CO2 g/mile) AND efficiency (MPGe), so if it had more granularity, you could tell which EV is more efficient even if the EPA puts emissions at zero for all of them.
     

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