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New member brucesurf has a question about charging

Discussion in 'Australia' started by brucesurfs, Nov 24, 2015.

  1. Dborn

    Dborn Confirmed

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    #21 Dborn, Nov 25, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
    As far as i know, and providing you are talking about 3 phase, you need 5 wires. That is, earth, neutral, and the 3 phases. Some machinery does not require the neutral wire, but i believe the Tesla does.

    SPECIFICALLY talking ONLY about the mobile connector supplied with the car, at MAXIMUM efficiency it can only charge to 50km per hour, so a single onboard charger is sufficient. I have not seen the spec for the new WALL connector which is 3phase, but i assume it will allow 32 amps per phase. That being the case, if you want to take full advantage of THAT connector, then you need 2 onboard chargers with should give about 100 to 110 km per hour. ECIT, the car works out at about 200wh per km. Amps x volts equal watts. Therefore 1 kw gives approx 5km. If you are drawing 32 amps on the single phase wall connector, 32x240 = 7.68 kw. 7.68 X by 5=38.5 km more or less per hour. Bear in mind losses occur. This is ONLY for single phase.
    The calculations are a bit different with 3 phase and not quite as straight forward.
     
  2. meloccom

    meloccom Moderator Aus/NZ

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    Moderators note:
    Renaming this thread to "New member brucesurf has a question about charging"
     
  3. EcoCloudIT

    EcoCloudIT Active Member

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    Thanks Dborn,

    To clarify I have 4 wire for a single phase Model S 70 (non-D) with one charger...if I can get around 35km's per hour I'll be happy enough...that will give me more than enough charge overnight, only average 100km's per day (business day's) on a big day.

    I'm not bothering with 3 Phase and the like as I would like to move to Solar capture/store and really only need the top up charge each night in a trickle type of charge.

    -ECIT
     
  4. Dborn

    Dborn Confirmed

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    Ok. Then 32 amp X 240, realistically around 35 km/ hour. But why 4 wires? Should only be 3. Active, neutral, and earth. Did he use 4 wire simply to get larger diameter conductors ( wires)? Such as 6 sq mm? That way, you would get less loss over a longer cable run. 6 is also the recommended diameter for 32 amp draws. Maybe he couldn't get that in a 3 core.
     
  5. EcoCloudIT

    EcoCloudIT Active Member

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    I just checked with my electrician, so actually it is a 3 wire cable at 6mm and the cable run is about 25m from the Tesla Wall Connector to the switch box.....

    Hopefully this will allow me to get around 35km/h....the house has been recently completely rewired so all cabling is new....

    -ECIT
     
  6. MangroveMike

    MangroveMike Member

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    *sigh* Not denigrating, just setting the comment into context - melocomm's comment was about 3 phase - NOT 16AMP 3 phase, that's your addition.
     
  7. raynewman

    raynewman Active Member

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    NO - the line before in his original post says "The summary is that aftermarket solutions are available or you can purchase a European spec 3 phase adapter for the Universal Mobile Connector (UMC) that came with your car. You then need to make up an adapter to convert from the red European plug to the Australian equivalent that is called a Clipsal 56P532 plug."
    That unit is 16 AMP.
     
  8. WhiteStar

    WhiteStar Member

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    Not meaning to denigrate you Ray, really not, but that unit is 32A.
     
  9. raynewman

    raynewman Active Member

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    Do you actually have one?
    I have one here; it is 16 AMP ONLY. Documentation follows.
    installation_guide_umc_red_eu.jpg
     
  10. WhiteStar

    WhiteStar Member

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    Hehe you know I don't but just because yours is 16A doesn't mean that all are. See the 32 on the end of Clipsal 56P532? That refers to 32A. If you Google 56P532, you can confirm it. In any case, the discussion is interesting for everyone. Nobody is denigrating you Ray. You have contributed a lot, carry on :wink:
     
  11. raynewman

    raynewman Active Member

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    You are obviously a lawyer.
     
  12. WhiteStar

    WhiteStar Member

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    LOL no more a lowly student of the sciences...definitely on some fact-checking spectrum though :biggrin:
     
  13. MDK

    MDK Aussie Member

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    The mobile connector itself is rated to 32A single phase or 16A 3 phase.


    mobcon.jpg


    Perfect for a single charger Model S but to take full advantage of dual charger Model S (on a 3-phase socket) you will need an after market EVSE like the EVR3
     
  14. raynewman

    raynewman Active Member

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    Yet one wonders what would happen should one add a 33 ohm resistor in parallel to the existing one on the 16 AMP 3 phase tail:rolleyes:
     
  15. omniwolf

    omniwolf eNizl

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    thank you for this! I did a subject of physics and electrical engineering at uni, consider myself fairly nerdy, but 80-90% of this electrical talk across the various threads goes way over my head. For the cost of a few hundred bucks it looks like it's definitely worth grabbing a bunch of adapters and being able to charge almost anywhere. I have a multitude of questions, i'm hoping you can answer each (or i'll just keep asking :p )

    So to confirm, for a nice toolkit of charging options, i need:

    1) the standard UMC that Tesla provide
    2) the European 3 phase adaptor that you can buy from Tesla (is this a full cable? or is it just something you attach to the 10A AU UMC?)
    3) A European in-line connector (is this the thing i can order from Uniquip Electrical Wholesale Perth, WA ? if so, which actual product? is it this one?) Does this just plug and play with the EU 3 phase UMC or is there wiring to be done?
    4) Some AU plugs (32A and 20A should cover you? If you only have a single charger in your car, i guess 32A is useless? Also, where to get these?)
    5) you plug the 3 phase UMC into the in-line connector, and then you need the in-line connector wired up by an electrician to the AU plugs? Does this mean if i have a 32A and a 20A plug, i'll need to buy 2 in-line connectors? then i can plug them into the 3 phase EU UMC as required?

    WillH provided a picture in the mobile thread like this:

    attachment.php?attachmentid=101760&d=1448248591.jpg attachment.php?attachmentid=101768&d=1448249339.png attachment.php?attachmentid=101761&d=1448248617.jpg attachment.php?attachmentid=101768&d=1448249339.png attachment.php?attachmentid=101762&d=1448248638.jpg

    in order left to right, is that:

    Tesla EU 3 phase adapter <dynamically plugs into> in-line adapter <permanently wired to> AU ? amp plug

    and therefore you can use 1x Tesla 10A UMC, 1x Tesla EU 3 phase adapter, then you'll need to buy say 2 in-line adapters and 2 AU plugs (1x 20A, 1x 15A), and have these 2 plugs wired to the 2 in-line adapters?

    Next question: you mention in your plugs (i think) you have 1 phase and 3 phase (depending on the amps). Are these simply the AU plugs that determine the phase? everything else down the line (eg the in-line adapter, the EU adapter, and the 10A UMC) can take whatever you give it?

    Last question! I see talk of J1772 adapters, I assume this what they have at non-Tesla charging stations? If so, does the above setup allow for this? Or what would I need to be able to charge at one of these stations?


    Thanks so much for any answers! It seems all you guys have doctorates in EE and i'm the slightly retarded guy playing with duplo on the side.
     
  16. raynewman

    raynewman Active Member

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    1 & 2. The European three phase adaptor replaces the 10 AMP tail on the Tesla UMC - that is part 1 of the above photo.
    3. I used this one http://www.uniquip.net.au/shop/cordline-socket-16a-5-pin-400v-ip67-cee-form-iec-309 . The Tesla adaptor plugs in (push hard).
    4. The 32 AMP and 20 AMP (with this adaptor) still only draw 16 AMP per phase. The 32 AMP one is more common in the wild.
    5. From the socket referenced in 3. wire L1->L1, L2->L2, L3->L3, Earth->Earth and Ground->Ground and it's done.
    The adaptors (resistor between Pilot and Ground) determine the current. The wiring determines the number of phases (I have only done the 3 phase - dborn is the expert for 1 phase).
    For the J1772, see http://evnomics.com.au/j1772-to-type-2-adapter-rated-32a/?utm_campaign=anonymous&utm_medium=email&utm_source=yotpo
    you need this one rather that others as this is specially wired for single charger cars.

    No EE here - computer systems man (retd.)
     
  17. omniwolf

    omniwolf eNizl

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    OK, I assume this can be done without wiring, just plugging

    great thanks

    OK, considering i have the single charger Tesla, 16A adapter from point 3 is all I need, right? Also, where can i get these 32/20/15/? adapters? This is the bit that plugs into the wall, right? Can I plug the 32A adapter into my car and it'll only pull 16A and be safe etc? Or can I only use 16A chargers?

    OK, that doesn't specifically answer my question - i'll need as many adapters from point 3 wired permanently into the however many adapters from point 4 that I have, right? Then these plug (and unplug) into the Tesla UMC AU 10A/Tesla EU 32A combo, right?


    OK, i'll take this as a yes to my question then (ie it's the adapter in point 4 (and its wiring to the adapter in point 3) that determine the current and phase. everything else takes what you give it)

    Ah cool! This is a bit more expensive, do you think it warrants it? Or will I end up not really using it?

    computer systems man here too. and after purchasing this car, retirement seems a long way off ;)
    thanks for your answers, Ray. I really appreciate it
     
  18. raynewman

    raynewman Active Member

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    The three phase sockets are just sockets - the car determines how much to draw up to the maximum the socket will provide.
    The 32AMP and 20 AMP plugs are also available from uniquip.
    Yeah - or you can make/buy 20 AMP to 32 AMP adaptors (multiple ways to do this).
    I use mine seldom; bit slow tho (30 KmH typical) vs three phase as above (50 KmH typical).

    What sort of computer stuff?
     
  19. Dborn

    Dborn Confirmed

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    #39 Dborn, Nov 26, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2015
    In practice, and this is what I have/ carry, 1 wall connector in my garage. Supplied by Tesla. 1 universal connector cable, supplied by Tesla, both with your car. The universal comes with a 10 amp tail that plugs into any standard outlet in Australia. This is the slowest way to charge - 10 km/ hr, but in a pinch....
    Now the adapters. 1) 15 amp single phase, this requires the item on the left in your photo, plus the uni quip in line connector referenced by Ray. You also need a 15 amp plug, preferably but not essentially, the industrial grade one for waterproof reasons, but the one you can buy at Bunnings also works but with risk of water penetration. Must be wired to L1. On the uni quip connector - that is L1 to active in the 15amp plug. Earth and neutral essential. 3) & 4) 20 amp and 32 amp tails. I also have a J 1772 connector cable. One end of this plugs direct into the car and the other is a receptacle for the plug on a J1772 station. Stockland malls seem to be providing these, there is one in Cammeray for example. Look up plugshare to find others. Willoughby council has 1 Tesla and 2 J1772 connectors on the roof of the Albert ave car park in Chatswood. I am sure there are many others around.
    In summary, my swag has 3 uni quip in line connectors.3 different plugs + the Tesla supplied one for a total of 5 different ways to charge while on the road. 6 if you count superchargers and 7 if you include destination Tesla wall connectors.
    So in total, I have 4 different tails for the universal connector, 3 of which interchangeably plug into the universal connector. It does not matter about the power of the outlet the built in electronics in the universal connector ensure you can only draw what it is prepared to accept, and from 15 amp upwards you will be drawing the maximum per phase that the connector can accept. That is 16 amps per phase. Bear in mind that most caravan parks have 15 amp outlets, the extra amp you draw won't make any difference, I don't think. Anyway if you are worried, you could always dial back the amount to be drawn from the touch screen say back to 15 from a 15 outlet.
    Hope all this clarifies things.

    The European 3 phase adaptor plugs straight into the universal cable. In turn the inline connectors plug straight into that but need to be pushed quite hard to seat correctly, easy not to do and then the setup does not work.... Been there done that ( red face).
     
  20. raynewman

    raynewman Active Member

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    What - no CHAdeMO?
     

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