New P90D does 1/4 mile in 10.8 and 0-60 in 2.8s. Question: Does P85D get any love?

[CRASCH]

I'm actually pretty happy with the situation. No we aren't getting the 691HP which is the rating of the combined motors. What we did get was better than the advertised performance.

I'm just glad they went to the trouble to offer the ludicrous upgrade for existing P85D owners at a discount.

A side note on why I'm not disappointed with the 691 HP. Drive train loss is typically between 18% and 40%. The Tesla just doesn't have that much going on and is probably much less. Transmission, clutch, AWD differentials, and flywheel all suck horsepower.... What we got was a power limit that is less than the 691HP. 550HP equates to 21% loss and 500 is a 27% loss... This is not an ICE drive train (thankfully) and it has different characteristics and it isn't all equivalent. The end result probably isn't that far off of an AWD ICE at 691HP. Except... AC induction motors lose HP and torque at higher RPMs. It also has great low RPM torque and facilitates amazing traction control. I'll take the good with the bad. Could it use more upper range power. Yes it could and I'll gladly take the upgrade that will improve it.

I live in Colorado and at 5280FT (Denver) cars lose 18% of their performance and even more the higher you go. The Telsa is absolutely the king of the hill or mountains (if you prefer).

 

[AWDtsla]

No we aren't getting the 691HP which is the rating of the combined motors.

Type 10.9 ET and 5085 lbs (car+driver) into a 1/4 mile HP calculator. The result is 776.22 HP. If someone isn't happy with that, they should just not buy a Tesla.

 

[CRASCH]

Type 10.9 ET and 5085 lbs (car+driver) into a 1/4 mile HP calculator. The result is 776.22 HP. If someone isn't happy with that, they should just not buy a Tesla.

I'm agreeing with you. That calculator takes into consideration drive train losses and kind of indirectly validates what I was trying to say.

 

[3mp_kwh]

The price of the fully configured P90D barely went up from the old P85D. I know because I probably configure a car every week, waiting for the right time to buy.

P90D "L" is $13,000 more than P85D. Ludicrous is an additional $10,000 tick, the whole way when I give the website a pass. Whether that amount of money barely moves peoples financial perspective, I can't say, but relative to the .3 seconds it buys, it strikes me as a marginal gain.

[Edit: I think that horsepower calculator grades on a curve, too. HP spikes fall, and Tesla is offering quite a lusty, flat, torque curve.]

 

[yobigd20]

P90D "L" is $13,000 more than P85D. Ludicrous is an additional $10,000 tick, the whole way when I give the website a pass. Whether that amount of money barely moves peoples financial perspective, I can't say, but relative to the .3 seconds it buys, it strikes me as a marginal gain.

[Edit: I think that horsepower calculator grades on a curve, too. HP spikes fall, and Tesla is offering quite a lusty, flat, torque curve.]

Yeah I agree the fully configured P85D is now $13k higher. I don't know why he thinks it hasn't changed at all...

 

[lolachampcar]

Anyone that thinks there is bitching and moaning on this forum (of which I am one BTW) needs to spend some time on the tuning forums. If you want to see truly childish entitled antics, you fill find them there.

As for performance delivered, I really have a hard time taking any of this complaining seriously. Very few ever challenge my PD at a light and, when they do, it is all for fun and in good spirits knowing full well they will loose, especially on the sixty foot number.

I could care less how many ICE horsepower (or SAE for that matter) my car has. I care how it performs. I drove the car before I bought it and knew it was just ok above sixty. I was ok with that as I spend very little time with enthusiastic application of throttle above sixty in my daily driver. The point is not that I'm ok with it but that I knew fully well what I was buying from the very first test drive. If you have the background to get a hard on about horsepower numbers north of 500 then you sure should have the butt dyno capability to understand what you are buying. This assumes that, as others have pointed out, that you are incapable of understanding total available power from the battery.

I'm just looking forward to a TEN SECOND FOUR DOOR DAILY DRIVER that has a SUB THREE SECOND 0-60 TIME. Yep, that is worth screaming about. What a hoot

 

[AMPUP]

You would think Tesla would have their communications sh*t together and distributed some kind of q&a fact sheet.

Something like;

S85 - upgrade to s90 for x$ plus x$ for each mile on existing pack exchange, 30-60 improved by 0.8 seconds

P85 - upgrade to P90 for x$ plus x$ for each mile on existing pack exchange, 30-60 improved by 1 second

And so on and so forth

The fact they don't is ridiculous and causes mass confusion. The fact they don't means that what they said in the press conference isn't on paper and will most likely not be offered as stated to existing owners. Call me skeptical, but are you surprised?

 

[McMuggets]

For those of you who need to hear it from Musk himself and don't have the link, here it is:

Musk Archives - EV News ReportEV News Report


For existing P85D owners.:

1. $3000 for 90Kwh batt pack upgrade but not recommended unless you really need the extra range.
2. $5000 for Ludicrous upgrade

They sound like separate things according to above link. So, really, the existing owners come out better than new buyers. We got to enjoy the car, and then we get to upgrade to the same level as the brand new ones for less. As well, we got a schwack load of extra stuff included in the price that they aren't even offering now unless you pay more or go to the parts centre and order separately. (Dual chargers, rear lift gate, HPWC, Next-gen rear seats, darker metallic blue colour etc.). Overall, buying a P85D now is more pricey any way you slice it than it was back in Q4 2014. This price differential is even better if you are Canadian, since the Canadian dollar has been free-falling since Dec 2014.

Paying $5000 or $8000 combined to get a P90D with Ludicrous = a very good deal for being an early adopter of P85D. IMO!

 

[tomas]

You would think Tesla would have their communications sh*t together and distributed some kind of q&a fact sheet.

Something like;

S85 - upgrade to s90 for x$ plus x$ for each mile on existing pack exchange, 30-60 improved by 0.8 seconds

P85 - upgrade to P90 for x$ plus x$ for each mile on existing pack exchange, 30-60 improved by 1 second

And so on and so forth

The fact they don't is ridiculous and causes mass confusion. The fact they don't means that what they said in the press conference isn't on paper and will most likely not be offered as stated to existing owners. Call me skeptical, but are you surprised?

Read the blog. It's immensely clear that power improvement and capacity improvement 2 different things. Only PD owners can upgrade power and that costs $5K. Any 85 can upgrade to 90 capacity. Pricing not yet published, and I would not hold my breath. The fact they are urging to wait for more tells me they don't expect volume and are in no rush. I'd see roadster 3.0 upgrade as higher priority.

 

[AMPUP]

Thanks for the blog links clears up some things but it's still a blog though, how about a fact sheet released at the press conference . Is that really too much to ask?

 

[mattwhite]

For those of you who need to hear it from Musk himself and don't have the link, here it is:

Musk Archives - EV News ReportEV News Report


For existing P85D owners.:

1. $3000 for 90Kwh batt pack upgrade but not recommended unless you really need the extra range.
2. $5000 for Ludicrous upgrade

The $3,000 quoted to upgrade the battery to a 90kWh unit is for new purchasers. I don't think pricing has been released for existing owners. I have a feeling it will be substantially more than $3,000 though. It is possible it could be in the $12,000 range - that # has been thrown around before - maybe that is why Musk is downplaying the need for it - doesn't make financial sense until you're going to get a 15-20kWh bump.

 

[yobigd20]

New P90D does 1/4 mile in 10.8 and 0-60 in 2.8s. Question: Does P85D get any ...

The $3,000 quoted to upgrade the battery to a 90kWh unit is for new purchasers. I don't think pricing has been released for existing owners. I have a feeling it will be substantially more than $3,000 though. It is possible it could be in the $12,000 range - that # has been thrown around before - maybe that is why Musk is downplaying the need for it - doesn't make financial sense until you're going to get a 15-20kWh bump.

He said the $3000 was just for the battery upgrade hardware. Elon specifically mentioned that that does NOT include installation costs so that is the part that remains to be seen.

 

[commasign]

$3000 is the price differential between a new 85kwh pack and a new 90kwh pack for new cars only. If you are an existing owner, price has yet to be announced but will certainly be at least $3000 in addition to whatever battery degradation value loss assessed on your old pack (I.e. The older your pack, the less it's worth, the more you'll pay for the upgrade). There was an official Tesla blog in the past that said a trade-in for a brand new 85kwh pack is $12000 after 8 years so that suggests a worst case scenario of $15000 to go from 85kwh to 90kwh but I certainly hope they would value newer packs (e.g. Current P85D owners with less than 10,000 miles) more than that. $5000 is for the upgraded electronics/fuse system. So worst case scenario to go from P85D to P90D-L is $20000 plus labor.

Here is the blog post detailing the $12000 battery replacement:

2013 Model S Price Increase | Tesla Motors

 

[sorka]

I'm actually pretty happy with the situation. No we aren't getting the 691HP which is the rating of the combined motors. What we did get was better than the advertised performance.

I'm just glad they went to the trouble to offer the ludicrous upgrade for existing P85D owners at a discount.

A side note on why I'm not disappointed with the 691 HP. Drive train loss is typically between 18% and 40%. The Tesla just doesn't have that much going on and is probably much less. Transmission, clutch, AWD differentials, and flywheel all suck horsepower.... What we got was a power limit that is less than the 691HP. 550HP equates to 21% loss and 500 is a 27% loss... This is not an ICE drive train (thankfully) and it has different characteristics and it isn't all equivalent. The end result probably isn't that far off of an AWD ICE at 691HP. Except... AC induction motors lose HP and torque at higher RPMs. It also has great low RPM torque and facilitates amazing traction control. I'll take the good with the bad. Could it use more upper range power. Yes it could and I'll gladly take the upgrade that will improve it.

I live in Colorado and at 5280FT (Denver) cars lose 18% of their performance and even more the higher you go. The Telsa is absolutely the king of the hill or mountains (if you prefer).

Yes, we can give Tesla some discounts to account for the fact that 1 of it's real HPs is really better than that of an ICE HP.

1) The 1 HP is available more of the time and doesn't have one peak.
2) The 1 HP does not loss as much from the motor shaft to the wheels. In fact, the entire drivetrain loss from battery all the way to wheels appears to be about 10%. A regular AWD ICE car is 20 to 25%.

Still, even with those discounts, it doesn't put as much power to the wheels as an ICE car that actually makes 691 hp. The P85D could have made a real 650 hp and it would put down to the wheels what a real 691 ICE car puts down to the wheels because it's just so much more efficient. But there's just too big of a difference for those discounts to overcome the power that's actually made vs what was advertised.

- - - Updated - - -

Type 10.9 ET and 5085 lbs (car+driver) into a 1/4 mile HP calculator. The result is 776.22 HP. If someone isn't happy with that, they should just not buy a Tesla.

1/4 mile time calculators don't apply to EVs because they produce much more power early on in the RPM range than any ICE ever could.

For instance, if you take off insane mode on a P85D, it still produces the same peak 414KW but it does it later rather than earlier and it's 1/4 is far slower with insane mode turned off.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone that thinks there is bitching and moaning on this forum (of which I am one BTW) needs to spend some time on the tuning forums. If you want to see truly childish entitled antics, you fill find them there.

As for performance delivered, I really have a hard time taking any of this complaining seriously. Very few ever challenge my PD at a light and, when they do, it is all for fun and in good spirits knowing full well they will loose, especially on the sixty foot number.

The P85D is almost impossible to beat from a light up to 30 MPH. Even faster cars like the GTR have to use launch control which is loud and draws attention.

However, an RS7 will kill our P85Ds from a 50 MPH launch even if the RS7 is in cruising gear in auto mode. The RS7 only has 560 hp.

 

[cassiri]

I have to say as an owner of a P85D for less than a month, I feared this kind of change might happen too soon relative to my purchase. I too wish the car got an upgrade that delivered the 691 HP that was marketed when I ordered. That said, the way this P90D change was handled is about as equitable as you could hope for. It provides a discounted path for P85D's to get the top tier performance they were looking for and forces new P90D to pay a bit more via a bigger battery to also reinforce the relative value of being an early adopter of the P85D. If I was ordering today I would have a hard time ticking the box that adds $13k to what I paid for the P85D. Might do it, but it would be tough.

For those I've seen that don't understand the need for speed, that's fine. It's not something that can be rationally explained. Elon clearly is a car guy that understands more is better. To drop the quarter mile time by that much for around $5k is a relative bargain. You would spend much more and get less putting that into your Porsche for sure. Can't wait for the Youtube videos against the next tier of supercars!

 

[sorka]

He said the $3000 was just for the battery upgrade hardware. Elon specifically mentioned that that does NOT include installation costs so that is the part that remains to be seen.

Perhaps they could use the battery swap station to do it Seriously, folks have quoted as little as 30 minutes from the time the dropped their MS off to the time they were driving away with a loaner pack.

I don't need the range. However, I strongly suspect that sometime in the next 8 years my pack will be swapped out for some reason. I also suspect that if it's more than a few years down the road that they won't even have repalcement 85's any more and that what we'll get is a 90 or something else.

Also, any thoughts on the new battery chemistry's reliability?

- - - Updated - - -

I have to say as an owner of a P85D for less than a month, I feared this kind of change might happen too soon relative to my purchase. I too wish the car got an upgrade that delivered the 691 HP that was marketed when I ordered. That said, the way this P90D change was handled is about as equitable as you could hope for. It provides a discounted path for P85D's to get the top tier performance they were looking for and forces new P90D to pay a bit more via a bigger battery to also reinforce the relative value of being an early adopter of the P85D. If I was ordering today I would have a hard time ticking the box that adds $13k to what I paid for the P85D. Might do it, but it would be tough.

For those I've seen that don't understand the need for speed, that's fine. It's not something that can be rationally explained. Elon clearly is a car guy that understands more is better. To drop the quarter mile time by that much for around $5k is a relative bargain. You would spend much more and get less putting that into your Porsche for sure. Can't wait for the Youtube videos against the next tier of supercars!

If it's really $5k, presumably this is an attempt by Tesla to do right by those that bought the P85D thinking it had 691 hp but didn't really get that. I have mixed feeling about this. I don't feel I should pay for something that I already paid for yet they've provided an actual fix that isn't outrageously expensive and is cheaper than you can get if you're buying it newly configured. I assume this last point is their attempt to provide us with some compensation for selling us a 691 hp car that isn't.

It's also a good bet the Ludicrous upgrade won't actually be 691 hp, but it will be close enough that it will compare with other cars that actually make 691 hp given how much more efficient the Tesla is at converting it's energy into actual force to the wheels.

 

[kirkbauer]

As a new P85D owner I'm very interested in the Ludicrous upgrade option. However I'm still not exactly clear on what charge levels I need to get the current 3.1s (anybody have any good sources on that)? I wonder what charge level I need to get 2.8s? I wonder if it affects performance at lower charge levels? In other words, say at 50% charge I do 0-60 in 3.5s (I have no idea what the number actually is), would Ludicrous mode perhaps give me 3.2s at 50% battery?

 

[NOLA_Mike]

As a new P85D owner I'm very interested in the Ludicrous upgrade option. However I'm still not exactly clear on what charge levels I need to get the current 3.1s (anybody have any good sources on that)? I wonder what charge level I need to get 2.8s? I wonder if it affects performance at lower charge levels? In other words, say at 50% charge I do 0-60 in 3.5s (I have no idea what the number actually is), would Ludicrous mode perhaps give me 3.2s at 50% battery?

Elon's blog entry states that the "Ludicrous" upgrade allows for 1500A (Max) draw from the battery (whereas the current P85D is limited to 1300A current draw).

My assumptions based on this are:

Current P85D:

An 85 kWh battery back sits at about 400V when fully charged. This results in a maximum power draw of 1300A * 400V = 520 kW.
If the battery is discharged to the point where it is sitting at 350V then maximum power output of the battery is 1300A * 350V = 455 kW.

After "Ludicrous" Upgrade:

Maximum output power will be 1500A * 400V = 600 kW.
Discharged to 350V will be 1500A * 350V = 525 kW

Based on those assumptions, I think it reasonable to assume that with the upgrade you may get similar performance at lower states of charge that you get now on a full charge.

Mike

 

[sorka]

As a new P85D owner I'm very interested in the Ludicrous upgrade option. However I'm still not exactly clear on what charge levels I need to get the current 3.1s (anybody have any good sources on that)? I wonder what charge level I need to get 2.8s? I wonder if it affects performance at lower charge levels? In other words, say at 50% charge I do 0-60 in 3.5s (I have no idea what the number actually is), would Ludicrous mode perhaps give me 3.2s at 50% battery?

I'm seeing 3.2 seconds all the way down to 65% even though the peak power is quite a bit less at that SOC.

 

[kirkbauer]

Thanks for the info guys.

I'm also pretty confused about the fact that if you order a brand new P85D you can't get the Ludicrous mode unless you first upgrade to the P90D. Yet we can retrofit our P85D with the Ludicrous mode without the extra 5kWh. Those two facts don't make sense to me. Are they doing something different with our P85Ds than on a new P90D? Or are they just placing an artificial restriction on not allowing Ludicrous mode on new P85Ds?