JRP3
Hyperactive Member
That's possible but since the 3 will also be offered with a larger pack it will beat the Bolt by a large amount. I think the more aerodynamic 3 will beat the Bolt in highway range anyway even with the base pack.
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New Pack Architecture that is Likely Used in P100D and New TE Products
- Thread starter vgrinshpun
- Start date
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- Tesla Inc.
3Victoria
Active Member
Tesla and Jeff Dahn have good technology to characterize cells. I am sure that they are picking the best chemistry that maximizes the axes that they are interested in: density, stability, weight, life, etc.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Maybe it's because I only discuss in the EV context but I mostly see "LiPo" being used to describe LiFePo4. Lithium cobalt LiPo is pretty much nonexistent in the EV world (although there are those that use prismatic).
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
You bring up a good point. What do people mean when they say LiPo?
1) "true" Lithium-Polymer using a solid polymer electrolyte (in modern use this is typically not what people mean)
2) Lithium-ion using a polymer pouch and polymer gelled electrolyte or an electrolyte with polymer additive
3) Lithium-ion using a polymer pouch and standard liquid electrolyte
4) Lithium-ion using a polymer coated pouch (for example aluminum but not pure polymer) and standard liquid electrolyte
5) Any lithium-ion pouch cell (regardless of design)
I would just stick to saying pouch cell if meaning just any pouch cell.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Yes, when I say prismatic, I usually mean a hard casing, but I know technically it includes pouch cells.
I guess it's three main categories:
cylindrical
hard prismatic
soft pouch
If people missed the other thread, this is NOT the cooling architecture of the 100 packs.
Pics/Info: Inside the Tesla 100 kWh Battery Pack
Pics/Info: Inside the Tesla 100 kWh Battery Pack
Ubbe
Member
That is perhaps even more interesting/exciting than if the X/MS100 pack would have the new features discussed in this thread. That would mean... that the new design will first surface with the model 3.
Who will be the first to wreck their Model 3 for wk057 to examine it?
Just because there is a patent does mean it will ever be used.
Ubbe
Member
You are right of course. I should have prefaced my post with a qualifier like "potentially". But the patent is on the other hand not that groundbreaking or beyond the fray, but a rather practical, incremental improvement. So perhaps more likely to be used in real life, in contrast to (on the other hand of the spectrum) a patent for the first functional perpetuum mobile
You are right of course. I should have prefaced my post with a qualifier like "potentially". But the patent is on the other hand not that groundbreaking or beyond the fray, but a rather practical, incremental improvement. So perhaps more likely to be used in real life, in contrast to (on the other hand of the spectrum) a patent for the first functional perpetuum mobile
It kinda makes sense, in retrospect. To make this patent work on 18650 cells, they'd have to introduce a cell variant with both terminals on the top, right?
That'd mean a separate, dedicated line if cell production just for 100kWh pack modules - not a hassle Tesla needs right now.
Whereas it makes sense to start over for a new cell anyway - probably all the 2170 packs in all the various cars will use the top only terminals and heat pipe architecture.
It does make we wonder where the extra highway efficiency on the P100Ds comes from, though.
What extra efficiency? (There is ~16.6 more available kWh in the 100s than there is in the 90s, not 10 kWh like you would expect from the badge.)
Yeah, but that shouldn't have any effect on the MPGe rating...
Maybe the problem is that they are doing their calculations based on a 90 kWh pack when it isn't.
I don't think so. It's supposed to be miles driven over power from the wall - battery capacity shows up in the range, but shouldn't affect the efficiency number.
That is what I recall EPA procedure is - the MPGe is calculated based on actual miles driven over the defined road course, after the car fully charged and until the battery is fully depleted (car stops moving).
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Teardown of new 100 kWh Tesla battery pack reveals new cooling system and 102 kWh capacity
Looks like the battery technology is not so different from the 90kWh pack vs the 100kWh pack... just 2 additional cooling loops
Hughes’ teardown of the pack revealed that the new modules have 516 cells for a total of 8,256 cells per pack. That’s a ~16% increase over the number of cells in the 85/90 kWh packs. In a blog post, Hughes describes the new module and cooling architecture:
Basically they crammed a couple more rows of cells into the module. But what about the rumors around cooling? Well, they did modify the cooling, but not in any exotic way. The new modules simply have two shorter and thinner cooling loops per module. This way the coolant doesn’t have to run past so many cells before exiting. And he shared a few pictures (the one on the left is a comparison of a module from a 85 kWh pack (top) vs a module from a 100 kWh (bottom)):
Looks like the battery technology is not so different from the 90kWh pack vs the 100kWh pack... just 2 additional cooling loops
Hughes’ teardown of the pack revealed that the new modules have 516 cells for a total of 8,256 cells per pack. That’s a ~16% increase over the number of cells in the 85/90 kWh packs. In a blog post, Hughes describes the new module and cooling architecture:
Basically they crammed a couple more rows of cells into the module. But what about the rumors around cooling? Well, they did modify the cooling, but not in any exotic way. The new modules simply have two shorter and thinner cooling loops per module. This way the coolant doesn’t have to run past so many cells before exiting. And he shared a few pictures (the one on the left is a comparison of a module from a 85 kWh pack (top) vs a module from a 100 kWh (bottom)):
Thank you for the link/heads-up. This is very interesting.
Now I am wondering if they did do some minor tweaking to the chemistry of cells to improve supercharging. If cooling not much different and extra heat load is handled just by having two loops instead of one some changes had to b made to increase SOC at which supercharging start to taper. May be this is why Tesla's VP of investor's relationships clarified in his e-mail that Tesla used "essentially the same cell".
Brando
Active Member
How many 18650 are produced per year?
2.55 billion in 2013 divided by 7,000 = about 364,000
We know they didn't make that many Tesla battery packs that year, right?
more details below link
Types of Battery Cells; Cylindrical Cell, Button Cell, Pouch Cell
So 18650 cell format will probably be around long after Tesla stops using them, which hasn't happened yet, and I suspect won't happen until a major Model S or X manufacturing update. And many, many applications would have no compelling reason to change as the chemistries have always improved the 18650 performance.
I hope they do 1 or 2 million Model S before a major change is needed. Citroen DS made for 20 years about 1.5 million produced. Now that would be a way to maximize profits. Aren't great cars worth a couple of million copies being made? Even my Saab 900 they made about 1 million.
Have fun checking out this Wikipedia page, great history.
List of automobile sales by model - Wikipedia
2.55 billion in 2013 divided by 7,000 = about 364,000
We know they didn't make that many Tesla battery packs that year, right?
more details below link
Types of Battery Cells; Cylindrical Cell, Button Cell, Pouch Cell
So 18650 cell format will probably be around long after Tesla stops using them, which hasn't happened yet, and I suspect won't happen until a major Model S or X manufacturing update. And many, many applications would have no compelling reason to change as the chemistries have always improved the 18650 performance.
I hope they do 1 or 2 million Model S before a major change is needed. Citroen DS made for 20 years about 1.5 million produced. Now that would be a way to maximize profits. Aren't great cars worth a couple of million copies being made? Even my Saab 900 they made about 1 million.
Have fun checking out this Wikipedia page, great history.
List of automobile sales by model - Wikipedia
