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New Rated Miles For P85Ds Also Negatively Impacts Promised Charging Rate

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by Andyw2100, Dec 18, 2014.

  1. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Well-Known Member

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    The new, lower number of rated miles that the P85Ds are showing also negatively impacts the hourly charging rates that Tesla promised and is still promising on Teslamotors.com. And while I understand that the battery is still charging at exactly the same rate as before, I've done more than the average amount of reading here on the forums. I'd like to think I am somewhat better informed on this topic than the "average" customer. My concern is about that average customer. That person may already feel somewhat misled by the original 285 mile "range at 65 MPH" that was shown on the website when he or she ordered the P85D, since it has now turned into a significantly smaller 242 miles that they see on their dashboard. How is that person going to feel when the promised hourly charging rate, which did not have any asterisks beside it, is also lower?

    Again, no one needs to explain to me that the battery is charging at the same rate as before, or that the P85D is more efficient on the highway, and thus should get better range than the Model P85 that came before it. I understand all that. I'm writing about the potential issue that exists for the fairly uninformed customer. Tesla said, and is still saying (the screen capture I'm attaching was taken this morning) that with dual chargers and a properly installed HPWC the Model P85D will charge at 58 miles per hour. It won't.

    And moving forward from this, how does Tesla advertise charging rates in the future when the hourly charging rate is going to be different for the different models, based on their rated miles? Sure, they could switch to something like "percentage of full charge" but that's not nearly as understandable as 58 miles per hour.

    I really think this is an issue for Tesla, both short-term, for people who have purchased and are purchasing the P85D and other D models, and long-term, with respect to how they explain charging to people hitting their website for the first time.
    ScreenHunter_53 Dec. 18 07.34.jpg
     
  2. yobigd20

    yobigd20 Well-Known Member

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    The charging rate is the same. You're still getting the same kW/hr rate as every other Tesla. What would be different is a slightly less miles per kW gained. They should really just update their site to reflect that though.
     
  3. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Well-Known Member

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    I had written:



    and also




    So I'm wondering just what part of that confused you and would cause you to write:


    Also:

    As I pointed out, it's not as simple as just updating the rate on their site, since now they have different models that will charge at different hourly rates, based on their different rated ranges.
     
  4. Zextraterrestrial

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    #4 Zextraterrestrial, Dec 18, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014
    I do understand what you are saying. I think there is no good solution for 'stupid' people, meaning uninformed or even misled more than stupid
    Ideally kW should be the measure but I assume you need to show mi/hr for epa
    So what? Driving 65mph on the freeway and using a SC you will have a higher charge rate for your freeway driving than EPA combined ratings
     
  5. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Well-Known Member

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    Your comment covers the short-term--some of P85D and current D purchasers. But that still leaves the issue of what Tesla needs to do with respect to explaining charging in the future. I certainly don't think they should continue to mislead people. I know they are not doing it intentionally, but that doesn't alter the result.
     
  6. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    I think you're correct in your concern Andrew, it makes for bad PR even if it's a bit of nit-picking. The only proper way to adress it is to give the charging rate in only kW and then in a consise way explain to the customer what this represents. The term YMMV (your milage may vary) comes to mind and is not unknown to the fossil fuel experienced public.

    Simply put: Wh/mile is the equivalent of MPG, it will also vary with the same variables as MPG. Battry size in kWh is the equivalent of tank volume.
     
  7. andrewket

    andrewket 2014 S P85DL, 2016 X P90DL (soon 100)

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    I think Andy has a valid point, and I will argue that it has nothing to do with being stupid. We have the benefit of having spent way too much time learning all the details of these cars.

    A completely intelligent person buying a tesla for the first time will have an easier time understanding distance units over energy units. How do I compare a tesla with my current car, which is most likely an ICE. This is why Tesla went with distance units.

    Andy is adding an additional data point on top of the already known flaws of rated miles. With the X and the 3 coming, the issue will only get worse.
     
  8. MacLeodMX

    MacLeodMX Member

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    This ​is really not an important issue. 99% of the time owners will charge at home- where time to charge is not a concern. When traveling, perhaps you could use the extra ten minutes at the super charger to go for a walk etc. Enjoy the car. Little things don't matter
     
  9. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Well-Known Member

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    You clearly don't understand at all. There are no "time to charge" issues either at home or at superchargers. The issues are with expectations and with how Tesla markets things going forward.
     
  10. ckessel

    ckessel Active Member

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    It's not really any more or less confusing than how gas mileage varies, just that people aren't used to it. From a expectation setting point of view, about all Tesla can do is put an asterisk next to the number with a footnote that says something like "number is for the 85kwh with 19" tires" or some such. They've probably already got that disclaimer somewhere since range varies with the 60 vs. 85 and with tires.
     
  11. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Well-Known Member

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    As of this morning, when the screenshot attached to the first post was taken, there are no disclaimers of any kind any where. They claim 58 miles of range per hour. Period. That's in just one place. They have many charts, etc., showing different charging rates for different charging methods, but they are all based on the same range, and they are all wrong with the new range being used on the P85D. Here's another screenshot of wrong information, and no disclaimers, taken just now.

    ScreenHunter_54 Dec. 18 12.36.jpg
     
  12. stevezzzz

    stevezzzz R;SigS;P85D;SigX

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    The OP has a valid point. But there are other things that compromise the 'Rated mi/hr of charge' number, like sagging input voltage, battery SOC and pack temperature. The average person's eyeballs would completely glaze over if Tesla tried to explain all that on a marketing web page.

    It's a pipe dream to expect Tesla not to spin things in their favor in marketing collaterals. The average person understands that very well.
     
  13. ckessel

    ckessel Active Member

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    At the bottom of the page Your Questions Answered | Tesla Motors
     
  14. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Active Member

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    What is the difference in MPH charge rate that we are actually discussing here? In making my decision, the actual MPH charge rate was completely irrelevant. I simply looked at the total time required to charge my battery and that determined what charging option to use in my garage. I wanted the fastest, which is the HPWC, at just over 4 hours to fully charge the battery. That's the number everyone asks me about - how long does it take to fully charge the battery? Nobody asks me about the MPH charge rate. Maybe Tesla's solution should be to remove the MPH charge rate completely and simply focus on the time it takes to fully charge the battery. Those numbers should always be the same regardless of model if the total capacity is unchanged.

    While I agree that Tesla now has a fragmentation problem to deal with, we are talking about what, only a 10% difference and applicable to a single model - the P85D. All the other D models are still EPA rated at 265 miles just like the RWD cars, so nothing has changed there. I think we are splitting hairs here and making a mountain out of a molehill.
     
  15. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Well-Known Member

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    That's nice, but that disclaimer isn't in most places the numbers are shown. It's not in either of the places I included screenshots from.



    You're absolutely correct that the magnitude of the problem at this point is not very large. But as Andrewket pointed out upthread, the problem is only going to grow more complicated with the introduction of the Model X and Model 3 and whatever other models and variations come along. And as for your mountain and molehill comment, it really doesn't take much to work up those that want to see Tesla fail. Right now, until Tesla corrects the website, I expect they are opening themselves up to problems that none of us want to see them have to deal with. These may be molehills to us, but Tesla's enemies could easily turn these molehills into mountains. I'm sure none of us want to see that happen.
     
  16. freds

    freds Member

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    Or they could just add a note *. *Approximate miles added per hour of charging; varies based on car model.
     
  17. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    Honestly, if were talking misleading claims then saying the battery capacity is 85kWh is not really true either - you can only ever use around 81.
     
  18. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Well-Known Member

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    That may be so, but that is also a lot harder for the average person to see.

    On the other hand, the fact that his range increases what is it--51 or 52 miles--in an hour of charging instead of the 58 he or she was expecting--that is readily apparent.

    (And I'd add two wrongs don't make a right!)
     
  19. tga

    tga Active Member

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    Do you have a proposal to fix it? A web page with N different sliders to cover model, temp, altitude change on route, speed, etc, etc, etc. seems more confusing to new owners.
     
  20. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    I would suggest sticking with EPA range of 265 (it's a 3rd official party rating) and then with regards to charging saying it will take a certain time to fill a certain part of the battery (10%? A quarter?).
     

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