New renderings of storage space and 2nd row seats! (9/15)

[ZachShahan]

No comment on the matter itself, but on motivation: I think protecting Model S sales is also a very likely reason. As far as the wider public is concerned, Tesla is still selling the Model S only. Model X steps are taken for investors and to start manufacturing for early reservationsts in as much silence as possible, but beyond that they are probably playing time - as well as other motivators.

Intersting to see if September 29th marks coming out of the closet, so to speak.

Indeed. I am not making a judgement on whether a delayed reveal is because the X is *so good* or because it is "not ready," but Elon noted earlier in the year that they may need to start stimulating Model S demand by the end of the year. If it is getting to that point, Tesla could be very concerned about potentially denting Model S sales when the X comes out but is still far off from full production (due to suppliers).

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+1



The only meaningful information or indication that the poll provides is limited to information about 175 reservation holders that responded to the poll.
This sample is far too small and unrepresentative of the X target market. For these reasons, it does not provide any indication whatsoever of the larger population of potential X customers.



It is unfortunate that some released information about X is not what some reservation holders expected. There was a lot of anticipation of a happy event and now there seems to be a disappointment after such a long wait for some people. A very unfortunate outcome for some customers.

Some design preferences win over others, for various reasons (safety, popularity, appeal, cost, complexity, Elon's choice, etc). The pool of customers who might be unhappy with some car details relevant to them can only grow as the population of Tesla's customer's grows and becomes more diverse. It becomes harder to cater for all customer's preferences.

This problem is due to taking orders (deposits) for unseen and undeveloped products. This way of doing business was/is unavoidable for Tesla.

I hope that most reservation holders will like and enjoy their car.

Thank you for the excellent context and perspective. And for taking the time to acknowledge the disappointment of some people who put down $40,000 years ago. I obviously didn't do that well enough.

I think this is a key: "This way of doing business was/is unavoidable for Tesla."

And that it's almost impossible to not disappoint some people who have been waiting for years for a car they already put $40,000 into.

That said, as Bonnie and others have noted via direct quotes, Tesla's decision to not have the 2nd-row seats fold flat seems to be quite recent and, importantly, goes against statements made to reservation holders in the past. If people were in fact counting on that, and if the change does limit the utility of this vehicle for some of these people, that's a huge error... and hopefully something Tesla will try hard to correct and seek forgiveness for.

 

[flar]

At this point, the S makes more sense than a compromised X with lower range, higher cost. Yes, the X bird-wing doors will capture attention and in town it can hold 7 people, but less capable road tripping for five people and cargo capacity seems to be the compromise which limits the U in SUV. I hope we are all wrong, and the reveal showcases capabilities we are not aware of.

Even if you take the most pessimal estimations and observations here, the X will be far superior to the S for "road tripping for five people" - with 5 people you cannot fold any seats in the S, but you can fold the 3rd row in the X which makes a much larger trunk (given the roof profile alone) and a much larger frunk, combined with back seats that may well be much more comfortable than the S (more headroom, probably more shoulder room, and padding remains to be experienced but looks to have been a driving force behind the 2nd row design in the X).

The only concerns are about the cargo capacity when the S is in a 2-person mode - and it is focused more on the maximum dimension and how large of a flat surface area you have than the total capacity.

 

[WestCoastP85D]

Not sure I agree with you. I hope the car is more flexible than it appears.

Even if you take the most pessimal estimations and observations here, the X will be far superior to the S for "road tripping for five people" - with 5 people you cannot fold any seats in the S, but you can fold the 3rd row in the X which makes a much larger trunk (given the roof profile alone) and a much larger frunk, combined with back seats that may well be much more comfortable than the S (more headroom, probably more shoulder room, and padding remains to be experienced but looks to have been a driving force behind the 2nd row design in the X).

The only concerns are about the cargo capacity when the S is in a 2-person mode - and it is focused more on the maximum dimension and how large of a flat surface area you have than the total capacity.

 

[BornToFly]

For those that think the poll doesn't have any bearing on reality because of selection bias, or would rather sit in a comfortable second row that doesn't fold over a less comfortable second row that does fold - lets take a look at Tesla's success selling two versions of the Model S. One with a folding second row that is less comfortable, and one with very fancy, non-folding rear Executive seats. Which version was a total flop? Still think the poll results aren't an indication of how customers outside the forum will react to the seats?

 

[WestCoastP85D]

Talked with a Tesla sales rep. He confirmed the 2nd row seats only slide forward and slightly tilt. Said they prioritized comfort over utility. Said there will be NO option for a folding 2nd row. He also denied they promised such functionality or even had it in the prototype (yeah...uh....ok). I also asked about the roof rack - said no roof rack will be supported. He did say the hitch will support a small cargo carrier, but would interfere with the door opening unless the cargo carrier collapsed (some do.) He said the car was meant to hold adults over utility (not sure why this is a mutually exclusive requirement.)

For what it's worth....

For those that think the poll doesn't have any bearing on reality because of selection bias, or would rather sit in a comfortable second row that doesn't fold over a less comfortable second row that does fold - lets take a look at Tesla's success selling two versions of the Model S. One with a folding second row that is less comfortable, and one with very fancy, non-folding rear Executive seats. Which version was a total flop? Still think the poll results aren't an indication of how customers outside the forum will react to the seats?

 

[BornToFly]

I predict that Tesla will get so much grief for a non-folding second row by customers, reviewers, and the impact on sales, that they will have a folding second row option in less than a year.

 

[Newb]

I predict that Tesla will get so much grief for a non-folding second row by customers, reviewers, and the impact on sales, that they will have a folding second row option in less than a year.

+1

I'd even say in less than 6 months and retrofitable. I'm now convinced that it's needed to satisfy a large spectrum of the customers.

 

[ecarfan]

For those that think the poll doesn't have any bearing on reality because of selection bias, or would rather sit in a comfortable second row that doesn't fold over a less comfortable second row that does fold - lets take a look at Tesla's success selling two versions of the Model S. One with a folding second row that is less comfortable, and one with very fancy, non-folding rear Executive seats. Which version was a total flop? Still think the poll results aren't an indication of how customers outside the forum will react to the seats?

Apples and oranges comparison: the Executive Seat option in the S could not slide forward and tilt forward to open up the rear cargo area.

 

[BerTX]

I predict that Tesla will get so much grief for a non-folding second row by customers, reviewers, and the impact on sales, that they will have a folding second row option in less than a year.

I agree. I hope it is much less than a year.

But I think they already are aware, and never intended to release without a satisfactory seating system in place.

"These are not the seats we are looking for."

 

[yobigd20]

Going out on a limb here - has any sig holder here who finalized already call and ask Tesla whether or not they fold flat ??

 

[EchoDelta]

Why the assumption that we will learn more on the 29th about this?

 

[Cosmacelf]

Yes, many people have asked Tesla and the answer is always that the seats do not fold flat.

 

[AnOutsider]

Going out on a limb here - has any sig holder here who finalized already call and ask Tesla whether or not they fold flat ??

Yes. The signature seats do not fold flat.

 

[flar]

Not sure I agree with you. I hope the car is more flexible than it appears.

In what way do you think the X will be "less capable road tripping for five people" than the S? (I suppose range is one area the S has it beat in that regard, but in any other way?)

 

[anticitizen13.7]

In what way do you think the X will be "less capable road tripping for five people" than the S? (I suppose range is one area the S has it beat in that regard, but in any other way?)

I believe that Model X will actually be far superior than Model S for 5-passenger road trips.

2nd row seats will have more headroom and much nicer seats. There's the option of putting one person in the third row (leave 1 seat folded up). The frunk is much larger.

 

[FlasherZ]

So you're saying that if you were Tesla & saw that poll, you'd ignore it because of all the flaws?

I wouldn't. I'd never say it was accurate, for reasons you state. But I would not ignore it. Directionally, it would concern me.

I would perhaps use it to guide me to look at more statistically relevant information. Maybe I'm giving Tesla too much credit, but I'm presuming if they had to make a tough trade-off of completely flat (like they showed 18 months ago) vs. non-folding seats (the end result), that they already looked at statistically relevant information and made a decision based on that. Maybe they just looked at it and pulled a decision out of their asses, but I don't think that happened.

That poll simply says "this might be an issue, let's look into it with some real data". But I offer this: the written commentary in this thread is more valuable than the nature of that poll if you want to look at it in those terms. TMC polls are statistically worthless, no better than the 691 HP thread.

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Except I see no such bias here. While there are fans boys on every site, TMC in my opinion has a fair number of objective users seeking the truth no matter if it's good or bad :smile:.

That's BS. The poll suffers from selection bias in that those who are most vocally against the seats not folding will be most likely to take the poll. Those who don't care (and therefore are okay with non-folding seats) are unlikely to participate unless they think the vocal group is trying to screw them somehow. It is a self-selecting sample and will over-exaggerate the negative in this case.

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I don't think there is any very skewed selection bias involved. Some selection bias is unavoidable, but that's why I'm saying the poll is an indicator, not the absolute truth.

Then you don't know much about statistics. The poll, as written, will have a heavy skew toward the negative (complaints about non-folding seats). Most people don't take polls for fun, they only answer when there's a self-interest of some sort. Those who don't care won't bother with the poll unless they are led to believe there's something against their self-interest from those who do answer the poll.

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For those that think the poll doesn't have any bearing on reality because of selection bias, or would rather sit in a comfortable second row that doesn't fold over a less comfortable second row that does fold - lets take a look at Tesla's success selling two versions of the Model S. One with a folding second row that is less comfortable, and one with very fancy, non-folding rear Executive seats. Which version was a total flop? Still think the poll results aren't an indication of how customers outside the forum will react to the seats?

Yes, because we all know you can compare an executive sedan to a CUV and it makes a statistically bad poll completely valid.

Look, I admit that some people will be angry because they expected what Tesla had put into a slide 18 months ago. For some reason, Tesla couldn't deliver that. For whatever reason, they've had to make a trade-off (even if it's an Elon elegant seat trade-off) and Tesla will have to deal with it. Presumably, they've looked at it and decided that the number of people who want a fully flat cargo van type area is less than those who would prefer the design as it has been productionalized. No more, no less. Yes, I get you're pissed off. Yes, I get that you're a stockholder and think that this is going to sink your stock money. But for some reason, Tesla couldn't do it and now you have to trust that they made the trade-off with the right lenses in place. I can't confirm they did, but bitching about it in this thread is most likely going to do nothing more than they already have in their arsenal.

Let's say they figure out their issue 12 months down the road and introduce folding seats. I predict you're going to come here and say "see? told you so! company destruction threat, they listened to me!" No, they didn't... circumstances changed, and they were able to deliver what they initially targeted, and getting the car into production was more important right now.

No amount of complaining here is going to change that they made a trade-off. If they didn't know they'd end up with some cancellations before, they now know it. I think they probably had some idea of what the impact was going to be, but if not, now they get to measure it.

For what it's worth, I'd love to see everything fold flat too, so that the Model X could be the Suburban I once had. But I trust Tesla had to make a painful trade-off, used the information they had to do so, and might come back around when they can address it. I don't choose to believe they just woke up one day and said "F* you, TMC readers who wanted folding seats!!!!@!!!ELEVENTYONE!!!!OMGWTFBBQ!@11!!"

 

[Mark Z]

I believe that Model X will actually be far superior than Model S for 5-passenger road trips. 2nd row seats will have more headroom and much nicer seats. There's the option of putting one person in the third row (leave 1 seat folded up). The frunk is much larger.

And something extra that many got to experience at the Model X Premiere, the ability to stand up fully after stepping into the 2nd row. The excitement at the Tesla Stores will be electrifying as everyone will want to stand and sit in that second row. The open Falcon Wing doors will attract attention unlike any other car.

My Experience at Teslas Model X Reveal - GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site

 

[eloder]

Wife just got home. All that stuff leaning on the wall was in the car PLUS four ten footers that are at my feet. That's right, 120"x6" base moulding in a LEAF. View attachment 94449
Make of that what you will. What I'm feeling is that if she can go to the hardware store and bring that home in her LEAF, and IF, by design, I am unable to do so in my Model X, Tesla should be ashamed.

By design, a MX could haul something twice that long in a trailer, since the Leaf is incapable of towing.

I love my Leaf, but at the same time I didn't buy a Leaf and complain it can't go 200 miles on a charge. Similarly, people shouldn't buy a Model X and complain it can't haul X length plywood (even though towing lets you do that).

I predict that Tesla will get so much grief for a non-folding second row by customers, reviewers, and the impact on sales, that they will have a folding second row option in less than a year.

That's about as realistic as Tesla tanking because they went with an electric drivetrain over ICE, or that Model S door handles retract.

 

[Roamer]

Going out on a limb here - has any sig holder here who finalized already call and ask Tesla whether or not they fold flat ??

Finalized my order a few days ago. So far from what I see I like the seats. Easy access to the back and the second row seats look to be the same as the front seats. Flat fold is not a feature I care about.

i like that the seats are full size and adjustable. They have built in seat belts so people entering the third row don't get decapitated on side mount seat belts. I assume mounting the belts on the seats required stronger seats with higher backs. The falcon doors may make it impossible to side mount belts. The seats are perforated and according to the description heated and cooled. If they move forward with little effort for rear entry and increased space I am happy.

The order page pictures show them slid forward with cargo stacked behind. I assume that is what is available in the Sig cars. It is anyone's quess what will be offered in the future as options.

 

[AnOutsider]

That's BS. The poll suffers from selection bias in that those who are most vocally against the seats not folding will be most likely to take the poll. Those who don't care (and therefore are okay with non-folding seats) are unlikely to participate unless they think the vocal group is trying to screw them somehow. It is a self-selecting sample and will over-exaggerate the negative in this case.

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Then you don't know much about statistics. The poll, as written, will have a heavy skew toward the negative (complaints about non-folding seats). Most people don't take polls for fun, they only answer when there's a self-interest of some sort. Those who don't care won't bother with the poll unless they are led to believe there's something against their self-interest from those who do answer the poll.

The falcon wing door poll seems to show support for the doors though even with a vocal monitory expressing displeasure.

So can we discard the results of that poll as well? Or are they acceptable because they are overwhelmingly positive?