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New renderings of storage space and 2nd row seats! (9/15)

Discussion in 'Model X: Interior & Exterior' started by NigelM, Sep 15, 2015.

  1. dirkhh

    dirkhh Middle-aged Member

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    Umm. Timeout.
    Can we please tone down the language and the attacks? What does that last one even mean?
    Seriously - bonnie has done nothing to deserve attacks like that.
    This tone would get you in trouble on the play ground. I was hoping we could aim a little higher here.
    Moderators, cleanup on aisle seven.
     
  2. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Well-Known Member

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    You mean they aren't a sculptural work of art? lol
     
  3. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    #423 FlasherZ, Sep 17, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2015
    No polls on TMC are statistically valid as they suffer from self-selection bias. Those who don't care about the doors are less likely to take the poll compared to those who feel more passionate about the topic. So yes, the results are not statistically valid and will not represent the larger body of Model X purchasers.

    That said, there are a couple of notable differences: the doors poll is structured differently and more neutrally. It asks "which door style would you prefer, given what we know today", an independent choice with a more neutral tone. Relativity between options is less of an issue with that poll, versus the seats poll, although as noted it won't capture the apathy votes. The lack of discreteness in the answers (overlapping answers between sliding / standard / either) is also an issue. Either way, statistically, the results are invalid when attempting to draw conclusions about the larger pool of Model X customers from that poll because it is self-selected.

    The seats poll suffers from another bias in the way the answers are structured, because it asks if the option is a deal-breaker to the pollee. This will place extra weight on those who consider it a deal-breaker, and those who do not consider it to be a deal breaker are considerably less likely to vote in the poll (because they're more apathetic). It is designed with a loaded question, and the lack of the apathetic vote will show more bias toward the non-apathetic vote. However, even if you correct that, it still suffers from self-selection and small sample size.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Uhh, no clean-up needed. NONE of the text you quoted was toward bonnie and they're not attacks - and you have quoted my text completely out of context. I did not call anyone a name, and I called BS where it was present. Read the entire post again and note the multiple quoted text sections and their authors, it's to several different authors (bonnie gave a constructive note, to which I responded constructively; hpham007 said there was no bias, which is just wrong, period; Yggdrasil said there was no selection bias, which is again just wrong, period; and rdalcanto said that because Model S's executive rear seat option didn't have a great uptake that it means all Model X customers want folded seats, which is false logic as well. To help, I've even quoted a statistics textbook that says so, to which I was told I was wrong and TMC polls are indeed sound scientifically. I called BS on that; it's not an attack, it's the truth. Otherwise, find me a statistician who says that self-selected polls with small samples and loaded questions are statistically valid. Maybe political pollsters, but not anyone with a shred of credibility in statistics.

    And what does the last one mean? It means that some of the posts here are suggesting that Tesla just randomly decided one day to take away folding seats for the hell of it just to piss off some customers, and fail to recognize that it's likely a trade-off that had to be made. They're unhappy with which direction the trade-off went - and it's okay for them to be angry - until they suggest that every other Tesla customer is just like them and therefore there will be millions and millions of cancellations and OMG the company is going to DIE!!!11!!11!!! (Because a flawed TMC poll that suffers from tremendous self-selection, loaded-question bias says so!)

    I think it sucks Tesla had to make a trade-off. I would like folding second-row seats. I likely will not cancel because I can't get a cargo van storage space, others will. I know how frustrated they must be, having either $5,000 or $40,000 tied up for a couple of years and learning that Tesla couldn't accomplish its Big Hairy Audacious Goal at release time, especially after showing their goal in a slide from 18 months ago during the design phase. It sucks when you can't accomplish everything you want in the first landing. But to suggest that Tesla doesn't know what it's doing, or that the company is dead because it had to make this trade-off, seems improper at this time with the information we have. I hope everyone gets their cargo van capability eventually, it would make my life easier for those times I need it. 99% of the time, though, I will probably make better use of the additional room that is provided at the base of the second-row seats when compared to the folding seats.

    I'm not saying that those who are passionate about wanting folding second row seats are wrong - in fact, for their specific situation, they're right for their specific situation, and it's a deeply personal element. What has been wrong here is the reliance upon bad statistics and/or some vocal opinions in this thread to attempt to extrapolate to the broader Model X customer base. We can all agree there will be some level of people who are angry and who will cancel; there has been no credible evidence offered as to the magnitude of that, along with the alternatives. That doesn't minimize those who have posted their opinions here - those are anecdotes that Tesla can consider, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
     
  4. WestCoastP85D

    WestCoastP85D Member

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    I have explained this several times. We do not believe the storage will be sufficient, but we will wait until the official reveal.

     
  5. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    I hope you find a solution and that the storage works for you.

    I've found that 5 people is no issue, whether Model S or Model X. I took my family of 6 (2 front, 2 rear, 2 rear-facing) to Florida for 2 weeks in Model S (granted, a RWD Tesla that gave me the microwave in the frunk). Model X would only give me more room the way it's configured.

    The only issue I can see is where there is a desire for a 1-2 people-passenger Model X with a complete "cargo van" space for hauling "stuff" - dogs, wood, whatever.
     
  6. jomo25

    jomo25 Active Member

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    Just chiming in - I like what I see so far. Family of 4 including 2 kids under 5. We won't be hauling too much lumber or furniture in the car. We've put the rear seats down in our S exactly once in 2.5 years.

    If we do need to haul a bunch of stuff, I suppose we'd rent a trailer and hitch it. But we'll wait until more detail before we jump in. At P1134, we're hoping that odes come soon, though.
     
  7. postpast

    postpast Member

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    A lot of discussion on the fact that the seats don't fold flat. Maybe I missed some posts, but I think the fact that the seat-backs don't recline is going to be a big issue as well. If they are going for passenger comfort as they say, I would think the ability to nap in the 2nd row would be ideal.
     
  8. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    Hmm, you have a point. They do tilt, though...
     
  9. vandacca

    vandacca ReActive Member

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    @FlasherZ, I'd like to compliment you on your attempts to educate the forum on statistics. I've taken a few University level stats courses and I can confirm everything you're saying. There is a lot that goes into properly defining a poll, framing of questions, distributing it and presenting it. That doesn't even include the analysis of the results. We have too many arm-chair statisticians in the audience that should be listening to the professionals.

    I do want to add that reservation holders are not as powerless as you make them out to be. We can affect Tesla and even possibly force them to design folding seats. If the Model-X does not work for enough reservations holders, and they cancel their reservations, Tesla will be forced to react. Another example is the elimination of the 40kWh and 60kWh Model-S because no one was buying them.

    Conversely, if enough people accept these sculptural works of art, then Tesla will not take notice of the minority and there will be no folding seats.
     
  10. goneskiian

    goneskiian Active Member

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    Yes. Multiple. MarkZ, dirkhh, vandacca just to name a few (and because I can't recall the others ;-) ).

    Although I'm not sure all have actually finalized their orders. Some are waiting for more info before commiting.
     
  11. vandacca

    vandacca ReActive Member

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    Not to be pedantic, but I'm not a Sig holder, I'm regular production #008 (Canada). But I did Email NATesla and they called me to answer my 2nd row questions. And I was very thorough in questioning the rep. on all possible ways the seats could transform (rotate, spin, fold, spoon, etc.). But I failed to ask if they could be removed, but I'm fairly certain they can't.
     
  12. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    I'm willing to lay down money that says Tesla's already working on a second-generation seat that would achieve the goal they showed in that slide 18 months ago, and that it was not due to this thread or the poll. Credible and authoritative (NASales doesn't count!) evidence to the contrary and $100 goes to Autism Speaks or Special Olympics Illinois.
     
  13. ohmman

    ohmman Maximum Plaid Member

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    I made a decision last night while laying in bed. It's absurdly obvious so please excuse my posting it. I'll continue to follow and participate here, but I'm not going to even remotely worry about a decision until I'm asked to configure. At that time, who knows what the options will be? The most important realization was this - if I don't like the offering, I can pass, and that doesn't mean I'll never own a MX. It means I may have to wait a bit longer for the MX that I want.

    Again, I realize this is simple (and it's an unfair example to the current Sigs) but something for others to also consider.
     
  14. dirkhh

    dirkhh Middle-aged Member

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    I'm not quite as certain as you are, but certainly won't bet against this. This will be the equivalent to the A batteries :)
     
  15. leh22a

    leh22a Member

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    I really think people don't realize that the non folding seat design is potentially better then the traditional. As I mentioned before, I'm confident Tesla laid out both configurations. Then they went to department stores and funiture stores and Home Depot etc and obtained logs of what people bought. Then they experimented and shove all these items into the X testing both configurations and to their surprise, the final non folding design was more efficient. People here may disagree but I'm sure if they could compare the 2 side by side, the nay Sayers would also realize that Tesla's final layout does in fact allow you more versatility. There has never been an SUV like the X. Nothing with a roof opening and deep floors to load things. This allows for so many different things to be stored that could not be stored with a higher floor when the seats are folded. I really think they could have put in folding seats if they wanted as we have seen plenty examples on this thread of folding seats with in-seat seat belts that are not anchored to the frame. So I really believe they put these seats in cause they found it had more utility.
     
  16. CarlK

    CarlK Active Member

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    That's the attitude. People tend to stress themselves unnecessarily.
     
  17. dirkhh

    dirkhh Middle-aged Member

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    That's exactly where we are.
    It's funny. I was a little mad at my wife in 2013 when she was dragging her feet until we decided to make the reservation - which moved us back about 3000 spots.
    By now I have apologized to her and thanked her for her wisdom... by the time we'll be asked to configure loads of cars will be on the streets, the store should have a demo car and (hehe) if we are lucky the second generation second row seats and the battery with the better supercharger rate will have been introduced :)
    So yes, @ohmman - you're not alone with that realization. I don't know what your reservation number is, but it sounds like we are in a similar situation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just to prevent misinformation - I may have posted a lot here, but I don't have a Sig reservation (P6218), I haven't been invited to configure (thankfully - I want to drive the car before committing) and haven't had a chance to talk with Tesla sales about the questions. I have, however, seen a handful of actual Sig reservation holders post here and may have repeated the information they provided...
     
  18. TSLAopt

    TSLAopt Active Member

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    This is the thing, Elon has stated in the past that they are anti-selling the model X. They have so many orders of the model X They don't want to do anything that would encourage a faster rate of reservations they already are getting until their production is ramped.
     
  19. adiggs

    adiggs Active Member

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    I'm Sig #184 and have received my invitation to configure. I did ask about removing the seats, and can confirm I was told that the second row seats can't be removed.
     
  20. Mark Z

    Mark Z Active Member

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    Those who read most of the recent Model X posts know that I have confirmed my order. I now enjoy learning more everyday from the new data gleaned from Tesla updates in the Design Studio that those configuring are reporting. Keep posting those new graphics and screens. The new information you report give those of us who have confirmed, the visuals we can no longer access. It is like cool water to a parched tongue or a fresh sea breeze on a hot summer day. Someday the delivery will take place, and we can provide dozens of photos and videos of moving seats, rising wings and more detail than you can imagine.
     

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