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Discussion in 'Model X: Interior & Exterior' started by NigelM, Sep 15, 2015.
You assess the validity one way, I assess the validity another way. I doubt we will agree.
I am curious about the way you assess validity
The poll is on a Tesla enthusiast forum. The group you are polling is therefore inclined to be positive to Tesla, but also to have strong opinions about Tesla. Furthermore, the poll is in the subforum "Model X", which means that primarily you will be polling people who are enthusiastic about the Model X. The thread title is "How important is it for you that the 2nd row seats of the Model X are stowable?" which is pretty neutral, maybe with a slight bias. Enthusiasts will tend to care about most things posted on the forum. They might not get involved, but it costs them almost nothing to enter the thread, answer the poll and see if anything interesting is being said.
The poll question is "What do you need to not cancel your Model X reservation?" This excludes those who have clicked the thread but who do not have a reservation (They will mostly either vote "other" or not vote at all), also it angles the question such that it pushes the voters towards the milder options, as many want convenient folding/stowable seats but won't definitively say that it will stop them from buying the Model X, given that this is a car that they care so much about as to put down 5k USD or more, before even seeing the car. In this respect, the poll is conservatively biased, where the numbers for those who require flat storage space will be understated.
I think the biggest issue with the poll is the question if the people who frequent the forum are a representative sample of Model X reservation holders as a whole. I think they aren't, but it's harder to say which way they will be biased. Some non-enthusists might buy the car without caring about anything other than outward perception, others will carefully weigh capabilities up against the capabilities of other SUVs. It's impossible to say which group is most important, but what we do know is that the Model X enthusiasts, those who consider all sides of the issue until they're blue in the face, are generally negative to non-stowing seats. Overwhelmingly so.
Also, there is certainly a correlation between being a first adopter and financial resources. This forum is overrun by first adopters, and thus people here will have above average resources, even for Tesla buyers. There will be an inverse correlation between financial resources and required specifications. Less resources -> higher requirements. This is because if you have a four car garage, there's no problem having a car for every situation, but if you only have two cars, that means each car must be more capable. This means that the people on this forum can be expected to rate the need for stowable seats lower than other Model X reservation holders, when only considering finances.
There are other aspects I can discuss, but to sum up, I simply assess the validity of the poll differently.
Thank you for taking the time to compose a comprehensive response.
I agree that we see the poll very differently.
I would also add that the Tesla's potential market for X is likely quite different than the reservation holders subset.
I updated my post #458 up thread with a link to Bloomberg article that sheds some light on Tesla target market for X.
I agree that the potential market is likely different from the current reservation holders. I have no doubt that Tesla will be able to get enough buyers, at least through 2016. But when doing the seats differently means keeping maybe 25% of current reservation holders as buyers, that is something Tesla should be working on.
This is a problem to me. Things are changing in the studio AFTER you've confirmed, and the only way you know this is because you read TMC.
Also guys, if you're going to go all pedantic on the poll, perhaps do it in the poll's thread and not the thread discussing the seat renderings?
If that's their goal, they're doing a great job of it! Not releasing info and putting in non folding seats is definitely anti-selling the X.
Dude, really? This actually made me laugh out loud.
As concerned parents we do our best to minimize our impact on the world and, if possible, to set an example to anyone we can. We try to minimize our garbage, never accept plastic bags from the supermarket, have 106 solar panels with 4 inverters (29kW system) to power our home, have two solar water heaters for house use and solar heaters for our pool, and I've been driving my Roadster for 4.5 years and we have been using my wife's Model S as the main family car for 3 years now.
Now, we do attend horse shows on a regular basis so I have a pick-up truck for towing and I'd like to get rid of that. So replacing our Model S and our truck seemed like the perfect idea when we saw the Model X reveal. We could transport our family with friends kids (whom we also pick up on a regular basis) and haul gear and tow the horse trailer. With the fold flat seats we also have a good way to transport our dogs etc. All in, we went with our gut and plunked down our $40k deposit almost 3 years ago.
Fast forward: Ok so the seats don't fold flat, disappointing but we can live with that. 60A/15kW charger is disappointing but we can live with that. So how much room does the X have? What are the dimensions? We can haul family and friends but can we get the big stuff in there that we currently fit in our S? We can pull our horse trailer but what about tongue weight capacity? Tesla doesn't want to answer the questions yet, and we can live with that. But, it makes no sense for me to click that order button blind on $140k vehicle when I don't know whether it will actually meet our needs. As of yesterday I put our order on hold with a request that Tesla lets us maintain that status until more info becomes available.
I guess that by your definition we don't deserve to be Tesla customers.
For shame Nigel.
FWIW, I put in a similar request to stop the clock on my order. We'll see what happens.
This is where Tesla have got it Wrong. In their desire to keeps some things under wraps until (presumably) the 29th, they are asking you to confirm your order without giving the info you need to determine if the Model X will suit your needs. The fact that you have (correctly) put your order on hold is not a good look as far as I am concerned.
I went for a ride last night, and after tossing my bike into my Chevy Volt I snapped a photo so I could compare it to this thread. I sized my photo to match the Model X's rear bike wheel. Even with the 2nd row of the Model X not able to fold, I'm a bit surprised that the room in my Volt (which I consider a small car) appears to be close to that in the Model X.
(FYI, I'm 5' 9" tall. The bike in the Model X looks more sized for someone around 6 feet tall or taller, so even though the rear wheels match in size between the photos, you should take bike size into account.)
Last night five adults with a little luggage called for an Uber and then we climbed in to a Chevy Traverse which seemed about the same size as MX (it's a few inches longer). The middle three-adult seats slide forward and pinch-fold to give access to the third row but instead people folded the seat down and climbed over and then later could not get out without assistance. I'm sure hey could learn how to do it better but it was awkward. A wider door would definitely have made ingress and egress easier.
The pinch-fold used in the Traverse has not yet been suggested for MX that I can recall from reading here: seat slides foreword, the back leans forward, and the seat bottom tips up. This complicated mechanism does let the middle seat move closer to the front seat than a non-articulated seat but with a thinner seat back could do about as well with just sliding forward. The gain from the fold-up bottom seems to be about half the length of the seat bottom.
The Traverse is clearly marketed toward women with kids as a "mid-size crossover" but the seats also fold down to help create a large flat storage area. (Mid-size to the Suburban, I suppose)
This car stuck me as a comparable utility/people mover but with articulated second row seats for (possibly) more utility. It is ugly and has a gas engine taking up the trunk so not a winner in my book but a comparable car none the less in terms of size and function. I'm sure those articulated/folding seats were not easy to engineer, either.
This is a CGI bike in the Tesla photo, correct? So, couldn't we use a CGI banana and have the same amount of confidence in the "to scale" reliability of the bike?
The Model X image seems to be with the 2nd row seats available for use. But out of curiosity, how many inches is that in the Volt, from the rear hatch to the front seats?
This (Traverse) is what we're replacing with our Model X. It also suffers from an extremely high floor in the back; because of the "stubnose" of the Traverse, Chevy has moved a lot of the electronics and battery toward the back of the car. The 12V battery is beneath the rear seat floorboard, for example. There's no storage around the base of the second row (meaning the kids' electronics bags and such get jammed around their feet), and the rear seat tracks always fill with powdered Cheerios, broken toy pieces, and other assorted sticky drink remains. You're right in that if you have the bench seat option, you have to partially fold the second row to get in - my son climbs over the back of the third row and out the back usually. The second row doesn't really fold flat; instead, the bottom seat cushion flips vertically, then the seat back folds forward, the top of the seat resting against the vertical cushion.
It does its job, but not all that well. I can pull my boat with it, but the 6-speed transmission is a horrible dog and "spongy" when I do. It does its job to haul the family, but we've grown to like the Model S with the rear-facing seats for travels with our family of 6.
I interpret your point to be that if GM can make a folding seat why is Tesla having a problem? The problem is the seatbelt attachment point. The falcon wing doors do not allow the seat belt to be attached to the frame as it is in the Traverse. The seat belt must be attached to the seat, so the seat construction must be many times more robust.
So, the bird wing doors eliminate roof storage and seat fold down capability. Those are some serious tradeoffs. They better be amazing.
With how quickly Tesla changes direction when they need to, I wouldn't bet against you on this one.
I also did this a few weeks ago. Been feeling a lot more relaxed as of late.
I'm glad the Model-X has been perfectly designed for your needs @CarlK. However, that's not the point. Tesla has advertised from day 1 a vehicle with fold-down seats and at the last minute communicated a change in that one significant feature. Even though I may be able to make the Model-X work for my needs/life, I must empathize and agree with others for whom it doesn't. This is not a dictatorship, so people shouldn't be going around saying that they have to accept Tesla's decisions or the highway.
@Yggdrasill, do you have your Model-S set to Ludicrous mode? Sure seems that way. There are people on this forum that are clearly well educated in the area of statistics and poll creation. Judging by your comments, you have no such training. I understand that you're learning a lot from these discussions, but it would be best if you went to the library and learned from a good stats book. You would learn a lot more, in a more logical sequence. At the very least, don't argue, just ask questions as to why all these polls are badly designed or why a question is poorly written.
Only possible difference (depending on 2nd row location) is that the Model-X may be able to seat 5 while also being able to store the bike. I would love to know the location of the 2nd row in that image Tesla provided.
Great post. Visual to go above. Man, those seats do not look very comfortable/designed by comparison to the Model Xs.
This. Gen 2 versions will have folding seats.