Yes, drag power increases cubically, but drag work (and the kWh you'd need) increases squarely, ignoring the drivetrain losses. I presume that's what he was referring to.
New Roadster Goodies for 2014
- Thread starter hjr
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Yes, drag power increases cubically, but drag work (and the kWh you'd need) increases squarely, ignoring the drivetrain losses. I presume that's what he was referring to.
strider
Active Member
I agree w/ Mitrovic and JRP3. This is primarily a PR stunt to show the general public that EV's are "upgradeable" vs ICE cars that aren't and because they need to use newer cells as those are all that are available now. The general public doesn't care about making the car corner better - they'd need to whack 800lbs off to make it handle like an Elise and that's just not newsworthy nor is it worth the development effort. The Roadster will become a classic/icon but like other classics its actual performance as a car will be eclipsed in short order. Of course people will still collect, drive, and appreciate them. After all people still drive Model T's, Porsche Speedsters, etc. even though a Honda Civic is a better performing car. My point is that if you want better performance you need to buy a newer model, period. Model 3 will outperform the Roadster in every category and I will be able to use the phone and take my kids places.
As a result of this announcement I'll enjoy telling people how EV's can have a much longer usable life than an ICE and how the car actually get's better as it ages but I'll be selling my Roadster once a Performance Model 3 is sitting in my driveway.
As a result of this announcement I'll enjoy telling people how EV's can have a much longer usable life than an ICE and how the car actually get's better as it ages but I'll be selling my Roadster once a Performance Model 3 is sitting in my driveway.
smorgasbord
Active Member
In its heydays, Jaguar did the same thing. The XKs (120, 140, 150, and E-Type) got the latest in engine and suspension design from Jaguar engineers. A few years later, those improvements made their way to Jag's sedans, which was their bread and butter.
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Nice dream, but it won't be reality. Model 3 won't out-accelerate Roadster, for instance.
jvonbokel
John VonBokel
I wouldn't go so far as to call it a stunt, but I would say that it is probably as much about showing one more advantage of EVs to the general public as it is about pleasing Roadster owners.
You had me up until "every category". The Model 3 will be a far more pleasant daily driver, but I doubt it will match the straight-line performance of the Roadster. The performance model certainly *could*, but from a business standpoint, it wouldn't make much sense to have a $35k car that beats your $70k car in a drag race*. Also, at the lower price level, I think the performance trim level will represent a significantly smaller fraction of sales than the P85 does currently for the Model S.
*One caveat here is that there could very well be an upgraded Model S by then.
strider
Active Member
Why not? The BMW M3/M4 has a faster 0-60 than the M5. The Perf model will not be 35k. Tesla has said they're targeting the BMW 3-series so that means a RANGE from $35k-$100k.
And I flat disagree w/ smorgasbord above. An AWD Performance Model 3 will SMOKE a Roadster in 0-60.
And the Model S will be upgraded. They've already said they're going to make the AWD system from Model X an option on Model S in the future.
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Once upon a time Elon was asked about when the Model S would get an battery upgrade. He said something like (just from my bad memory) "I think it will be about the time the Gen III car get out". And, an another time he was asked about when the Model S 2.0 would be out, and he guessed about 7 years after production start, with a facelift somewhere in the middle. So yes, I think Model S will have an upgrade by then
ecarfan
Well-Known Member
Yes in general I agree with you though I would like to think that Elon has a soft spot for the Roadster and would enjoy doing "something nice" for the owners. But there still needs to be a business rationale for this battery upgrade offer and quite likely the prospect of real world testing of the latest cell type along with showing the world that EVs are readily upgradable makes sense.
That said, if a Tesla announces that new higher capacity Roadster batteries are available for $15,000 or more your average car buyer is not going to be impressed. When an ICE gets old almost no one is willing to shell out more than a few thousand to keep it running. Of course old ICE cars are often only worth a few thousand and Roadsters are worth many tens of thousands, but the sticker stock of a battery replacement costing tens of thousands of dollars is not going to help Tesla. The replacement cost has to be seen as something reasonable if it is needed to keep the car operational.
It is all going to come down to what Tesla decides to charge for the Roadster battery upgrade. And none of us have any inside info on that. Wait and see...
strider
Active Member
I think that is a big unknown about the future of EVs - how packs will be valued in the resale market. We haven't had Li-Ion EV's long enough for battery packs to "wear out" in large numbers. On one hand you can say that a pack only needs to be replaced when the range drops below what *you* need it for. So if someone only has a 25-mile commute they could buy a Roadster w/ a pretty trashed pack and still use it. As an anecdote I recently owned a diesel Jeep Liberty. The timing belt had to be replaced at 100k and it was a fairly expense job (~$2,500). In the resale market the value swung by $2k or so depending on whether that service had been done since the new owner would need to do it (which was roughly 20% of the value of the car). So in theory we will learn how to value the residual capacity of a pack when buying used. I wonder how sites like Kelly Blue Book or Edmunds will handle that?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
First of all we have no data that Tesla will be using anything other than the current Model S cells in the Roadster pack upgrade. Second, it would be a terrible idea for Tesla to "test" new cell chemistry in Roadsters. Testing suggests they don't really know how the new cells will perform, (if they actually used something new), so there is a potential for disaster if the new upgraded "test" packs stated having problems. No way is Tesla using upgraded Roadster packs as test beds, they aren't that incompetent.
smorgasbord
Active Member
Um, strider, I didn't say what you quoted me as saying. I think you went too crazy with the copy and paste quote thing.
dhrivnak
Active Member
Great move on second thought. Initially I was a bit disappointed as I would have preferred a smaller lighter pack. But the reality is the Roadster accelerates and handles with the best of the ICE cars. Few will be impressed with a few tenths of a second but a 400 mile range WILL impress the average person. It is amazing how many people think even 200 miles is barely adequate and when going on a trip the limited range is a pain in the Roadster. After some thinking time 400 miles will open up MANY more trips and will show people that EV's are upgrade-able in a significant way.
While I do not think Roadster owners will be beta testers, but the pack will be heavily tested by Roadster owners. There is nothing like real world data to simulate the real world. Tesla needs some history and data before they start making 100's of thousands of cars.
I also think if priced reasonably; this upgrade will remove a big barrier in many people's minds. If I had a $1 for every question I have received about battery life and cost I could pay cash for a new battery now.
While I do not think Roadster owners will be beta testers, but the pack will be heavily tested by Roadster owners. There is nothing like real world data to simulate the real world. Tesla needs some history and data before they start making 100's of thousands of cars.
I also think if priced reasonably; this upgrade will remove a big barrier in many people's minds. If I had a $1 for every question I have received about battery life and cost I could pay cash for a new battery now.
400 Mile Pack (Was New Roadster Goodies for 2014)
Yes, and in fact in every racing series where it's allowed, qualifying laps are done on low fuel for this very reason.
Range is not king at all, and I would absolutely prefer a car to be hundreds of pounds lighter than to have extra cost and no additional utility.
Yes, and in fact in every racing series where it's allowed, qualifying laps are done on low fuel for this very reason.
Range is not king at all, and I would absolutely prefer a car to be hundreds of pounds lighter than to have extra cost and no additional utility.
A steel bodied 4 seater won't out-handle a carbon fiber bodied 2 seater. The 3 will probably weigh on the order of 1000lbs more.
strider
Active Member
You said that Model 3 will not out-accelerate the Roadster. The typical measure of that is a 0-60, 1/4 mile time, etc. I think you're wrong. I think that an AWD Perf Model 3 will out-accelerate the Roadster. I didn't quote you, just threw that in to the post I was already writing. We can revisit this thread in 4 years and find out
Model S lap times around Laguna Seca are faster than the Roadster and it's 1900lbs more than the Roadster. Model 3 will be even faster than Model S. The center of gravity on the Roadster is terrible. It also has the wrong size wheels/tires for its weight. Not to mention the air-cooled motor and PEM. We all know EV's have tons of torque, that's why we love them. But getting that power to the ground is a challenge for the Roadster. An AWD Model 3 will solve that problem.
I'm not a hater. I really enjoy driving my Roadster. But when Model 3 comes out the Roadster will effectively be 10 years old. Tesla will have made MANY improvements by then. It's just how the world works.
You said that Model 3 will not out-accelerate the Roadster. The typical measure of that is a 0-60, 1/4 mile time, etc. I think you're wrong. I think that an AWD Perf Model 3 will out-accelerate the Roadster. I didn't quote you, just threw that in to the post I was already writing. We can revisit this thread in 4 years and find out
Model S lap times around Laguna Seca are faster than the Roadster and it's 1900lbs more than the Roadster. Model 3 will be even faster than Model S. The center of gravity on the Roadster is terrible. It also has the wrong size wheels/tires for its weight. Not to mention the air-cooled motor and PEM. We all know EV's have tons of torque, that's why we love them. But getting that power to the ground is a challenge for the Roadster. An AWD Model 3 will solve that problem.
I'm not a hater. I really enjoy driving my Roadster. But when Model 3 comes out the Roadster will effectively be 10 years old. Tesla will have made MANY improvements by then. It's just how the world works.
Track times are not "all measures". A roadster will win at autocross. Likely also short hillclimbs. And in handling...like I said.
A roadster with 200lbs less weight will win at handling even more.
I don't think that Tesla will make another true 2 seat 2 door sports car, I think that a Model 3 sports car - if one is made - will be based on a 4 door 4 seat car.
A new car will likely be aluminum and steel and bigger.
Old Roadster performance advantages that a new car wouldn't have:
1) carbon fiber lightness
2) 2 door 2 seat tiny
Old Roadster performance disadvantages that a new car could fix:
1) heavy low density ( huge and square ) battery
2) compromise frame to fit huge square battery
3) wheels/brakes undersized for weight
4) air cooled PEM & motor
For the pure acceleration question: Will a more powerful lighter battery and newer drivetrain overcome the added weight of the new Model 3?
We will see.
A new car will likely be aluminum and steel and bigger.
Old Roadster performance advantages that a new car wouldn't have:
1) carbon fiber lightness
2) 2 door 2 seat tiny
Old Roadster performance disadvantages that a new car could fix:
1) heavy low density ( huge and square ) battery
2) compromise frame to fit huge square battery
3) wheels/brakes undersized for weight
4) air cooled PEM & motor
For the pure acceleration question: Will a more powerful lighter battery and newer drivetrain overcome the added weight of the new Model 3?
We will see.
djp
Model 3 Performance
The current Model S cells don't have the capacity to give the Roadster "about 400 miles" range. You'd need about 90kWh to go that distance, and with 237 fewer cells than the Model S 85kWh pack. It's a good bet they're using the next gen cell.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Remember the Model S's "300" mile range? I think people are too hung up on the "400" mile number. 6831 x 3.6V x 3.4ah = 83611.44 Wh / 220Wh/mi = 380 miles That's "about" 400 miles, and if you drop your speed a bit more you could in fact hit 400 miles. Even the current Roadster can do 400 miles, at 20mph.
smorgasbord
Active Member
Huh? Are you really too lazy to even check what you wrote? Here's a screenshot:
Those are not my words you're attributing to me.
GSP
Member
- Dec 28, 2007
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I thought the Model S cells were about 3100 mAh, instead of the 3400 mAh "off the shelf" Panasonic cells. This was done to provide longer life for automotive use, compared to the lower life needed for consumer electronics use.
I do wonder how Tesla will provide a 400-mile pack "this year." Maybe by using the 3400 mAh consumer cells, or another higher energy off the shelf consumer cell. The longer life of Model S cells would not really be needed for the Roadster, since Roadster owners will be more willing to buy new batteries every 8-10 years, and get a nice upgrade for thier money.
GSP
I do wonder how Tesla will provide a 400-mile pack "this year." Maybe by using the 3400 mAh consumer cells, or another higher energy off the shelf consumer cell. The longer life of Model S cells would not really be needed for the Roadster, since Roadster owners will be more willing to buy new batteries every 8-10 years, and get a nice upgrade for thier money.
GSP
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