New Roadster Goodies for 2014

[djp]

Remember the Model S's "300" mile range? I think people are too hung up on the "400" mile number. 6831 x 3.6V x 3.4ah = 83611.44 Wh / 220Wh/mi = 380 miles That's "about" 400 miles, and if you drop your speed a bit more you could in fact hit 400 miles. Even the current Roadster can do 400 miles, at 20mph.

We don't know the nominal voltage and Ah rating of the Model S cells, you're assuming the 85kWh pack is larger than advertised. If we take 85kWh at face value:

6,831 / 7,104 * 85kWh = 81.7kWh

81.7kWh / 56kWh * 245 ideal = 358 ideal, or 316 EPA

Either way, we're still coming up short of "about 400 miles". Elon's goal is to drive from SF to LA on a single charge. That's tough to do with 358 or even 380 ideal miles.

 

[strider]

Huh? Are you really too lazy to even check what you wrote? Here's a screenshot:

View attachment 54067

Those are not my words you're attributing to me.

Woah. Board software must have messed up. I didn't edit jvonbokel's quote to insert your name so I didn't even look at it - I just clicked the "Reply With Quote" button under jvonbokel's post and then started typing. Sorry! I fixed it.

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Track times are not "all measures". A roadster will win at autocross. Likely also short hillclimbs. And in handling...like I said.

A roadster with 200lbs less weight will win at handling even more.

I guess that depends on your definition of "handling." In my world, roadracing tracks are the definition of "handling" because there are turns in both directions, heavy acceleration, heavy braking, high and low speed turns, etc. I also disagree about autocross. Traction is king and the Roadster has trouble getting all its power to the ground w/ its RWD and open diff. I still believe an AWD Model 3 will be able to put all of its power to the ground and therefore be faster. All the super/hypercars these days are AWD. There's a reason for that.

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I don't think that Tesla will make another true 2 seat 2 door sports car, I think that a Model 3 sports car - if one is made - will be based on a 4 door 4 seat car.
A new car will likely be aluminum and steel and bigger.

Elon has said there will be a Roadster replacement, likely after Model 3. I think it will be more like a 911 than the Roadster. The market for a 911 "luxury" performance car is much larger than the market for a hard-core sports car.

 

[Jaff]

Range is not king at all, and I would absolutely prefer a car to be hundreds of pounds lighter than to have extra cost and no additional utility.

I think it important to remember that one offered solution (ie 400 mile battery range) cannot possibly make every Roadster owner completely satisfied...however, I think most most Roadster owners do not track their cars, and that most Roadster owners would be very happy with an increase in range...I think that initially, with the announcement of the 400 mile battery, Tesla has succeeded ...I would also like a performance improvement via liquid cooled motor and PEM, but for now, range is king imo...

 

[richkae]

Elon has said there will be a Roadster replacement, likely after Model 3. I think it will be more like a 911 than the Roadster. The market for a 911 "luxury" performance car is much larger than the market for a hard-core sports car.

I am sure that if Tesla survives, eventually they will make all manner of vehicles: sports car, van, pickup truck. After Model 3 could be 10 years from now.
Elon says lots of stuff that may or may not happen.

I bet that Tesla does not make another 2 door 2 seat sports car any time before 2020 at which point the Roadster will be 12+ years old.

 

[yobigd20]

I am sure that if Tesla survives, eventually they will make all manner of vehicles: sports car, van, pickup truck. After Model 3 could be 10 years from now.

I bet that Tesla does not make another 2 door 2 seat sports car any time before 2020 at which point the Roadster will be 12+ years old.

Elon said that Tesla never plans on making more than 5 or 6 models simultaneously. Who knows of they'll stick to that though.

We do know they have the S, X, Model 3, and plans for a Model 3 smaller crossover, a truck, and then probably a super sport car. Dunno if they have plans for anything else.

 

[richkae]

I think it important to remember that one offered solution (ie 400 mile battery range) cannot possibly make every Roadster owner completely satisfied...however, I think most most Roadster owners do not track their cars, and that most Roadster owners would be very happy with an increase in range...I think that initially, with the announcement of the 400 mile battery, Tesla has succeeded ...I would also like a performance improvement via liquid cooled motor and PEM, but for now, range is king imo...

It is a great PR move for very little engineering cost. That is why Tesla should do it. You just put the latest cells in the old battery harness and update the firmware.
It is a great PR move because it is the simplest thing that everyone will understand, all of the other possible improvements would not be a big splash or understood by the writers/readers of a 1-2 paragraph web news sound bite.

 

[FANGO]

All the super/hypercars these days are AWD. There's a reason for that.

Super and hypercars all weigh as little as possible. There's a reason for that.

 

[Jackyche]

Range and supercharger access are the only two things I'm remotely likely to pay for.

SC is out of the question and that leaves range. I love the upgrade, I think it's awesome. But I'm not going to pay 20,40,40k for it.

I'm happy with current 200 mile range. It works for me.

But I think the move speaks VOLUMES on the possible future upgradability of Model S.

If anything, I feel more comfortable buying a Model S. Before I was very hesitant because I thought model 3 would absolutely kill the resell value of MS.

 

[chickensevil]

If anything, I feel more comfortable buying a Model S. Before I was very hesitant because I thought model 3 would absolutely kill the resell value of MS.

That actually still worries me. Because then in order to raise the resale value back up you are going to have to buy a new bigger battery? I am inclined to think that it will have to be size and luxury in the car that ends up making it hold up a decent value. If they release the M3 with about the same level of features then I would see very little appeal in the MS anymore. I am really hoping I can still net about 70k out of my car in about 3 years (paid 96k) if not then I am certainly going to be disappointed in the resale value.

Roadsters don't really have this issue since there are so few of them, and they are not going to make anymore. So people will pay the price just to own a piece of history at this point. The only things really helping to hold up resale value on the MS is supply and that they keep raising the price of the car.

 

[FANGO]

400 Mile Pack (Was New Roadster Goodies for 2014)

. I am really hoping I can still net about 70k out of my car in about 3 years (paid 96k) if not then I am certainly going to be disappointed in the resale value.

This seems like it would really be a very high resale value for any 3 year old luxury car. I would expect it to be less than that, but if you get that much you should be pretty happy, not just not disappointed,

The tesla resale value guarantee is based on the average of comparable cars, which usually lose about 50% value in 3 years.

 

[strider]

Super and hypercars all weigh as little as possible. There's a reason for that.

At the end of the day we're talking power:weight ratio. My contention in this whole thing is that the AWD Perf Model3 will have VASTLY more power than the Roadster (dual motors, better and liquid-cooled PEM, newer battery chemistries that allow high discharge rates, etc) and while it will weigh more (I'm guessing ~3,800lbs) the power:weight will be much better than the Roadster. It will also have a very low cg due to the batteries being in the floor like Model S which will make for better handling than the Roadster.

That actually still worries me. Because then in order to raise the resale value back up you are going to have to buy a new bigger battery? I am inclined to think that it will have to be size and luxury in the car that ends up making it hold up a decent value. If they release the M3 with about the same level of features then I would see very little appeal in the MS anymore. I am really hoping I can still net about 70k out of my car in about 3 years (paid 96k) if not then I am certainly going to be disappointed in the resale value.

In the short term your fears are valid. The reason is because there are people who bought Model S because they wanted a sedan but they really want a car the size of Model 3. There was a similar drop in Roadster prices as a fair number of people bought a Roadster because that was all that was available but when MS came out they sold or traded in to get an MS. But in the medium term there will be a market for both just like there is a market for Audi 4/6/8 and BMW 3/5/7. People will want different sized cars.

But I think FANGO is right in that you should not expect your car to be worth $70k in 3 years. Looking at the 2011 MB S550, $93k retail, are going for ~$50k today. So I would expect your car to be worth $50-$55k after 3 years. But what we don't know is whether EV's will hold their resale value better than ICE's because assuming the batteries hold out they shouldn't cost more and more to repair as they get older like an ICE.

 

[FANGO]

At the end of the day we're talking power:weight ratio. My contention in this whole thing is that the AWD Perf Model3 will have VASTLY more power than the Roadster (dual motors, better and liquid-cooled PEM, newer battery chemistries that allow high discharge rates, etc) and while it will weigh more (I'm guessing ~3,800lbs) the power:weight will be much better than the Roadster. It will also have a very low cg due to the batteries being in the floor like Model S which will make for better handling than the Roadster.

I'm not talking about power to weight, I'm talking about weight. 1000lbs is a lot of weight. The motorcycle in your picture doesn't have awd nor does it have a low cg, and yet it handles better than the model s would with awd, because low weight = faster cornering speed. Lightness is king in any performance application, period. This is why it would be vastly preferable to reduce the weight of the new pack than to add range.

 

[Mitrovic]

You never can make everybody happy!

But this announcement Elon Musk has made SHOULD make EVERY Roadster happy! This is really extremely good news for every roadster owner.
May be one would have preferred yellow cells and the other pink, but there is life for the roadster after the death of it's battery pack, the roadster is here to stay!

I was thinking about trading in the roadster for the Model X because I did not know what future will be for the roadster, but now I know my 2.0 Sig Sport is to stay with me!

 

[dsm363]

M3 is a very confusing abbreviation again since M3 has been associated with BMW for decades.

The added range is great even if you never take advantage of it. Now you know there is an upgrade path at least.

 

[bonnie]

I'm not talking about power to weight, I'm talking about weight. 1000lbs is a lot of weight. The motorcycle in your picture doesn't have awd nor does it have a low cg, and yet it handles better than the model s would with awd, because low weight = faster cornering speed. Lightness is king in any performance application, period. This is why it would be vastly preferable to reduce the weight of the new pack than to add range.

I hope some future announcement gets you what you want. But this announcement has been made. The direction has been set for this particular upgrade. And many of us are very very happy about it, no matter how much you you tell us we are wrong to be .

 

[jerry33]

And many of us are very very happy about it, no matter how much you you tell us we are wrong to be .

You bet. Now if there would just be a similar announcement for the Model S.

 

[richkae]

I'm not talking about power to weight, I'm talking about weight. 1000lbs is a lot of weight. The motorcycle in your picture doesn't have awd nor does it have a low cg, and yet it handles better than the model s would with awd, because low weight = faster cornering speed. Lightness is king in any performance application, period. This is why it would be vastly preferable to reduce the weight of the new pack than to add range.

Imagine this:
You take a lightweight racing chassis and build two versions: a 2000 pound car and a 3000 pound car.
You give them the exact same power to weight ratio so they have identical straight line acceleration.
You give the heavier car bigger brakes to let them have the same straight line deceleration.
I think this would be pretty easy to do with an EV and electronic control - I would use LiPo in the lightweight car, and the heavy car may need ballast.
Carefully balance the cars so they have the same CG.

Then watch the lighter one destroy the heavier one around the racetrack.
That would be super fun to watch.

 

[Jackyche]

The news is a great one no doubt. But let's wait for the price before we start naming our first borns Elon.

 

[Bipo]

The really big thing is the compromise to upgrade existing vehicles... Model S w/110 kWh soon? Maybe

 

[richkae]

The news is a great one no doubt. But let's wait for the price before we start naming our first borns Elon.

It is my hope that Tesla will see the PR value of the battery upgrade price not being insane.
They are only going to do a handful per year. If the press is "sure you can upgrade the battery, but it will cost half as much as the car is worth" that isn't a great message.