New Roadster Goodies for 2014

[stopcrazypp]

So I keep seeing people throw around hard numbers on how many cells are in the packs... My understanding was that was a very good guess. Did someone actually get the chance to rip apart either of the packs to confirm these numbers? If so, then why didn't they also take the time to pull the real measurements off the cells (volts and amps)?

Cell count has been verified by ripping apart a salvaged pack and counting the number of modules and cells (previously there was also evidence from an NHTSA crash test document, although without as clear pictures):
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/31831-Battery-interior-and-Repair-of-Model-S/page2

The OP of that thread still has the project ongoing and haven't responded to some of the posts (including one from JRP3 asking to verify the cell capacity).

However, 3.1Ah is virtually impossible. It would need a 3.86V nominal voltage and none of the Panasonic chemistries operate at that high a voltage.

The closest is the "3.4Ah" (actually 3.35Ah if referencing the NCR18650B datasheet). This would result in 3.6V*3.35Ah*7104 = 85.674kWh
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf2/ACI4000/ACI4000CE54.pdf

 

[strider]

I'm not talking about power to weight, I'm talking about weight. 1000lbs is a lot of weight. The motorcycle in your picture doesn't have awd nor does it have a low cg, and yet it handles better than the model s would with awd, because low weight = faster cornering speed. Lightness is king in any performance application, period. This is why it would be vastly preferable to reduce the weight of the new pack than to add range.

You keep using the word "handling" without defining what you mean. At every race track I can think of, cars hold the lap record and not motorcycles. I also think a motorcycle would be slower than a car on an autocross track. Why? In the case of bikes it comes down to traction or contact patch. Cars have a much larger contact patch compared to a bike and force/power (whether that is cornering, accelerating, or decelerating) only counts if you can get it to the ground. Can a motorcycle change direction more quickly than a car? Yes. If that's all you mean by "handling" then you are correct. But in that case you should ride a bicycle as it can change direction even more quickly.

Imagine this:
You take a lightweight racing chassis and build two versions: a 2000 pound car and a 3000 pound car.
You give them the exact same power to weight ratio so they have identical straight line acceleration.
You give the heavier car bigger brakes to let them have the same straight line deceleration.
I think this would be pretty easy to do with an EV and electronic control - I would use LiPo in the lightweight car, and the heavy car may need ballast.
Carefully balance the cars so they have the same CG.

Then watch the lighter one destroy the heavier one around the racetrack.
That would be super fun to watch.

Interesting (and correct) thought experiment but not applicable to the discussion at hand: Roadster vs AWD Perf Model 3. Model 3 will have a better power:weight ratio, lower CG, and a larger contact patch (ie more traction) than the Roadster. As I said above the Model S already beats the Roadster around a racetrack and Model 3 will have even better dynamics than Model S.

 

[Doug_G]

As I said above the Model S already beats the Roadster around a racetrack and Model 3 will have even better dynamics than Model S.

Roadster back to its rightful spot at the front of the Refuel Leguna Seca time trials

The Model S beats the Roadster for half a lap, then starts progressively getting slower and slower. If the Model S could maintain full or nearly-full power for a couple of laps then it would be pretty darn good. But personally, as it stands, I'd rather take a Roadster on the track. Even if it is a fat-ass Elise.

 

[strider]

Roadster back to its rightful spot at the front of the Refuel Leguna Seca time trials

The Model S beats the Roadster for half a lap, then starts progressively getting slower and slower. If the Model S could maintain full or nearly-full power for a couple of laps then it would be pretty darn good. But personally, as it stands, I'd rather take a Roadster on the track. Even if it is a fat-ass Elise.

I chalk that huge gap up to driver differences. On this page:
REFUEL 2014 - Clean Power Motorsports Event | SPORT ELECTRIC TT COMPETITION RESULTS
A Tesla employee was (barely) faster than Joe. But this just reinforces my point in this thread. A RWD Model S runs neck and neck w/ the Roadster *today*. As I stated above an AWD Model 3 will smoke the Roadster. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't mean the Roadster won't be fun to drive and enjoy a topless spring day or even out on the track. A car doesn't have to be the fastest to be fun, just ask the legions of Miata drivers/racers. You people act like I'm saying your kid is ugly. I have a Roadster. I love it. But I am excited to be able to replace it with an even more capable car and I'm saying here that the Perf Model 3 will be WAY more capable than the Roadster.

 

[qwk]

I chalk that huge gap up to driver differences. On this page:
REFUEL 2014 - Clean Power Motorsports Event | SPORT ELECTRIC TT COMPETITION RESULTS
A Tesla employee was (barely) faster than Joe. But this just reinforces my point in this thread. A RWD Model S runs neck and neck w/ the Roadster *today*. As I stated above an AWD Model 3 will smoke the Roadster. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't mean the Roadster won't be fun to drive and enjoy a topless spring day or even out on the track. A car doesn't have to be the fastest to be fun, just ask the legions of Miata drivers/racers. You people act like I'm saying your kid is ugly. I have a Roadster. I love it. But I am excited to be able to replace it with an even more capable car and I'm saying here that the Perf Model 3 will be WAY more capable than the Roadster.

I agree. Tesla vehicles are only going to get better and quicker. Just because the Roadster cost more, and seated less, doesn't mean that it's going to remain on top forever. Technology changes rapidly, and leaves the predecessors in the dust.

 

[dhrivnak]

There is 0 data to say that the Model 3 will have AWD or would be faster than the Model S. Is it possible yes but highly unlikely at least not until 2020. I would place my bet on a pickup first as they sell 100x more than performance compacts.

 

[Mitrovic]

It depend on which track. I m sure that neither Model 3 nor the Model S would beat the roadster on this:

Klausenrennen 2013 - YouTube

But this is not the topic on this thread!

 

[Raffy.Roma]

Klausenrennen 2013 - YouTube

@Mitrovic

I gave a look to this video. Amazing! I have been hit by the fact that IMO you almost never used the brakes. Am I right?

 

[strider]

There is 0 data to say that the Model 3 will have AWD or would be faster than the Model S. Is it possible yes but highly unlikely at least not until 2020. I would place my bet on a pickup first as they sell 100x more than performance compacts.

Everything about Model 3 is speculation except that it's been said they will target the BMW 3-series. That *implies* a range of models from $35k up to $100k. And they will absolutely stuff another motor into Model 3 long before they'll build a whole new model. They'll already have the tech from Model X and S so why wouldn't they capture those folks wanting to spend big money on a high performance model? Not to mention pickup drivers have to be THE most anti-EV demographic on the planet. That will be an incredibly hard sell.

It depend on which track. I m sure that neither Model 3 nor the Model S would beat the roadster on this:

Klausenrennen 2013 - YouTube

Cool video. Thanks for sharing! But why do you say that neither Model S or Model 3 will beat the Roadster on that track? Do you think the Roadster has a higher top speed? Better cooling so it can run at high speed longer? For Model S from what I hear about the REFUEL events I would agree but I have to believe that Tesla will have improved the cooling for Model 3. I still think the low CG and higher traction will allow it to take corners at higher speed and since Model S out-accelerates the Roadster at higher speeds I think we can say the same for Model 3.

I'm really not trying to be a troll. Do you all agree that having Model 3 out-perform the Roadster is good for Tesla and good for EVs. IMO it would be very bad if Tesla's newest model was slower than it's 10-year-old one. Am I missing something?

 

[Mark77a]

It depend on which track. I m sure that neither Model 3 nor the Model S would beat the roadster on this:

Klausenrennen 2013 - YouTube

But this is not the topic on this thread!

Well done - that looks like FUN .
Like to hear more about car and stats on that little jaunt
Eg were you bouncing off the top temperature bars on motor .. (and PEM / ESS)

 

[FANGO]

At every race track I can think of, cars hold the lap record and not motorcycles.

The cars which hold the lap record have had their weights reduced aggressively, because, as I've repeatedly said and as everyone who deals with things that go fast knows, weight is king. Do you really think that a fast motorcycle won't beat a Model S around a track, because of contact patch? Or that the Model 3's contact patch will be so much larger than the 175/225 in the Roadster that that alone will make up for a thousand extra pounds of weight?

. I have a Roadster. I love it. But I am excited to be able to replace it with an even more capable car.

Me too. Like a roadster with 200lbs less battery.

 

[FANGO]

! But why do you say that neither Model S or Model 3 will beat the Roadster on that track?

Because weight matters even more on a hillclimb than on a flat track. The more you ascend, the more work it takes. Double the weight and it takes double the work.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

Me too. Like a roadster with 200lbs less battery.

Agree. I would like less weight and SuperCharging for the Roadster.

 

[qwk]

Because weight matters even more on a hillclimb than on a flat track. The more you ascend, the more work it takes. Double the weight and it takes double the work.

If you really want a lighter battery, there are plenty of aftermarket shops that would oblige to your request. It's not going to be cheap of course, but neither is Tesla's replacement pack.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

If you really want a lighter battery, there are plenty of aftermarket shops that would oblige to your request. It's not going to be cheap of course, but neither is Tesla's replacement pack.

IMO Tesla should consider the wills and the needs of Roadster owners before to upgrade the battery pack. At least this is the principle of Total Quality.

 

[FANGO]

If you really want a lighter battery, there are plenty of aftermarket shops that would oblige to your request. It's not going to be cheap of course, but neither is Tesla's replacement pack.

Tesla's replacement pack will be much more expensive if it's 400 miles than if it's 200lbs lighter, simply because of the quantity of cells involved. People here are talking about 90-110kWh replacement packs. That's double what a 53kWh replacement pack would cost. And the 53kWh would be lighter, thus better handling, and also have more range anyway because of it being lighter. And, again, half the price. If Tesla gives a credit for the returned battery (as Nissan has announced, and as Tesla did with the one S owner they did a battery swap upgrade for), that will shave some of the price off as well.

Also, no, I'm fairly sure that there aren't "plenty" of aftermarket shops that would oblige to my request, as I've heard no report of anyone ever doing this - except the one Roadster which was taken on Pike's Peak which was a custom one-off job which included at least a motor cooling redesign and has not been marketed for public consumption. If you've got a list of all the aftermarket shops which offer Roadster battery pack lightening by using new higher-capacity cells, I'd love to see that list.

 

[qwk]

It's all in how much you are willing to pay. Since a stock roadster battery is $43k, the same size pack with newer cells is probably going to be a bit more than that. I know it's probably not what you expected, but people are only fooling themselves if they think that the RETAIL cost of Tesla packs is going to go down.

 

[FANGO]

It's all in how much you are willing to pay. Since a stock roadster battery is $43k, the same size pack with newer cells is probably going to be a bit more than that. I know it's probably not what you expected, but people are only fooling themselves if they think that the RETAIL cost of Tesla packs is going to go down.

No, that's exactly what I've expected. Everyone else on here is talking about getting 400 miles for free, thinking that's what the deal is going to be, which naturally would lead people to be more excited about it. Who wouldn't be? But that's not what's going to happen. I'm pretty sure it's going to be 40k+ retail for the swap, as you said, but I think/hope that they'll give a credit for the old Roadster cells so it will end up working out a little less than that.

This is why I'm saying that a smaller pack would be better than an enormous pack. Because if the smaller pack has half the cells of the proposed huge one, then maybe it costs 25k instead. And then if you get a credit for the old Roadster cells, all of a sudden maybe it's a more manageable number in the low-5-digits or even high-4-digits (I'm using the report from the one guy who swapped his S60 battery for an S85, who got something like 80% of the retail value of his S60 battery - for those of us with low-mileage batteries and high CAC, even 50% would be great). I would absolutely rather pay less for a better upgrade (less weight, more efficiency, better acceleration, better handling, better balance, more effective brakes, handling changes meaning it's safer, better tire life, possibly better PEM/motor life since they're working less hard since they're moving less weight, etc. etc.) than more for an upgrade I don't have any particular desire for.

 

[qwk]

Just because the pack has less cells, doesn't mean it's going to be cheaper. It doesn't work that way. Also, the guy that went from 60kwh to 85kwh, traded in an almost brand new pack. 4+ year old Roadster packs with the 2.2 Ah Cobalt cells will probably not get much credit, if any, from Tesla. Anyway, I foresee many disappointed people here when the price is finally announced, and a huge thread full of whining will be formed.

 

[bonnie]

Anyway, I foresee many disappointed people here when the price is finally announced, and a huge thread full of whining will be formed.

And that's different from some of the current posts ... how? Seriously, no matter what Tesla does, that will be the result.