New Roadster Goodies for 2014

[FANGO]

Just because the pack has less cells, doesn't mean it's going to be cheaper. It doesn't work that way. Also, the guy that went from 60kwh to 85kwh, traded in an almost brand new pack. 4+ year old Roadster packs with the 2.2 Ah Cobalt cells will probably not get much credit, if any, from Tesla. Anyway, I foresee many disappointed people here when the price is finally announced, and a huge thread full of whining will be formed.

That's why I offered that I would be happy with a much lower than 80% credit.

A pack with less cells would certainly be cheaper than a pack with more cells. There's no way you can tell me that a 100kWh pack will be cheaper than a 53kWh pack if they used the same cells. And a modern pack, when the price has dropped on a wh/$ basis since 2008, should certainly be cheaper than the original pack was, if you used the same amount of energy storage.

I too foresee disappointed people, which is why one of the first things I did was send an email to ownership asking for clarification on details (and also stating that I would prefer to have a lighter pack rather than a longer pack). I think the disappointed people will include those who prepaid for the battery pack swap, who I expect will have the first 53kWh "comped" and then have to pay the price of the rest of it, since the contract does state similar energy storage.

 

[bonnie]

I too foresee disappointed people, which is why one of the first things I did was send an email to ownership asking for clarification on details (and also stating that I would prefer to have a lighter pack rather than a longer pack).

I will be (happily) gobsmacked if they actually have any detail to provide. Elon made an 'Elon statement'. It was directional only. Tesla staff are now scrambling to figure out how they're going to do it. I'm willing to bet there are no details to provide at this point in time or any point in time in the near future. Directional. That's it.

 

[dhrivnak]

A pack with less cells would certainly be cheaper than a pack with more cells. There's no way you can tell me that a 100kWh pack will be cheaper than a 53kWh pack if they used the same cells. And a modern pack, when the price has dropped on a wh/$ basis since 2008, should certainly be cheaper than the original pack was, if you used the same amount of energy storage.

You are forgetting engineering. If they use the same number of cells there is no need to change anything except possibly a few lines of code. Change the number of cells and the cooling loops change, the manufacturing process changes, the weight changes (which may entail testing). Another key is the discharge rate. Under full acceleration we are talking 700 amps and with 69 cells/brick that is about 10 amps/cell. That is quite a large discharge rate. If you drop a brick down to 50 cells for the same acceleration each cells must provide 14 amps. That will likely blow the fuses on each end of the cell. With only 2500 cars on the road you can't afford a lot of engineering time.

And for Strider who thinks the Model 3 will be a Roadster burner I am not betting on that. They are targeting a mass market and 400,000+ cars a year. Price is critical in that market. While I do not think the car will be a dog I think it is be just a bit better than the I3 but not as fast as the Model S. They are aiming for a different market.

As to price I am going to guess $25K with trade in. I feel they will cost it above the battery replacement warranty they sold initially $12K but I feel it will be below $42K to show costs are coming out and you get a better battery to boot.

 

[FANGO]

I will be (happily) gobsmacked if they actually have any detail to provide. Elon made an 'Elon statement'. It was directional only. Tesla staff are now scrambling to figure out how they're going to do it. I'm willing to bet there are no details to provide at this point in time or any point in time in the near future. Directional. That's it.

Yup! That's why I didn't just ask for clarification, but also stated my opinion. Since I know they haven't actually done the work yet and Elon was just lighting a fire ;-)

 

[strider]

The cars which hold the lap record have had their weights reduced aggressively, because, as I've repeatedly said and as everyone who deals with things that go fast knows, weight is king. Do you really think that a fast motorcycle won't beat a Model S around a track, because of contact patch? Or that the Model 3's contact patch will be so much larger than the 175/225 in the Roadster that that alone will make up for a thousand extra pounds of weight?

I'm saying that even though a "fast" motorcycle weighs much less than a "fast" car that cars tend to lap racetracks faster than motorcycles which negates your "weight is the only thing that matters" meme.

What will make Model 3 faster than the Roadster will be a combination of larger contact patch, lower Cg, and over twice the power. As has been posted here, the current RWD P85 is as fast as the Roadster (at least around Laguna Seca). A dual-motor Model 3 will easily be faster than the current P85 Model S because it will be both lighter and more powerful. Ergo it will be faster than the Roadster. I think that superiority will extend to other venues like autocross as well.

 

[Jackyche]

I think you guys are getting to caught up on performance of Model 3. Lets keep in mind what Model 3 is. Its an EV for the masses. No, its not supposed to do 0-60 in 4 secs. No, its not supposed to handle like a Porsche. Its a Nissan Leaf that costs $40,000 with a 200-mile range. That's what I want, and that's what the general masses want. If the current Nissan Leaf can do that, it'll sell hundreds of thousands too. Model 3 is not supposed to represent some sort of pinnacle of modern EV engineering.

I will be willing to bet my life on Model 3 can't do 0-60 in 4 seconds. The Model S that can do that costs almost $100,000.

Why would anyone be disappointed with a Model 3 that can't beat Roadster? The simple fact that Roadster's range is 240 miles already beat Model 3. One can argue a 60kWh Model S has less range than a Roadster. And does it really matter whether Roadster or Model S performs better in track conditions? I mean, c'mon, the motor overheats in a matter of minutes. I know I have more fun driving a Roadster than a MS. I know I'm a lot more comfortable cruising/touring in a Model S than a Roadster. Different cars man.

I'm more curious about the tech on the "next gen battery pack". According to JB Straubel's keynote recently, one can expect energy density to double every 10 years. He mentioned the Model S battery is a 40% improvement over the Roadster's and that's about 5 years apart. We're coming up on 10 years on Roadster's battery tech so when Elon announces 400 mile range, its actually right in line with the whole doubling schedule.

Video here:
2014 Energy Storage Symposium - JB Straubels Keynote - YouTube

 

[chickensevil]

Why wouldn't they release at LEAST two versions of the Model 3? A ~200 mile one and a ~300 mile one. That would stick with the trend from the model S and the X. Also why wouldn't they release a regular AND a performance version. Again, that would be following the trend of not just the S, but also the X AND the Roadster.

So at a minimum we have a 35k starting price for 200. Likely around 45k for 300 and I will say 55k for a performance. Now, given the MAJOR cost is not in the motor, and even if it was, you are talking about needing a less powerful motor to propel a lighter and smaller car, AND you are going to charge the same ~10k markup to get there... Why wouldn't it have the same speed and acceleration of the current cars? The motor is NOT the major cost here, it is the battery.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I think you guys are getting to caught up on performance of Model 3. Lets keep in mind what Model 3 is. Its an EV for the masses. No, its not supposed to do 0-60 in 4 secs. No, its not supposed to handle like a Porsche. Its a Nissan Leaf that costs $40,000 with a 200-mile range. That's what I want, and that's what the general masses want. If the current Nissan Leaf can do that, it'll sell hundreds of thousands too. Model 3 is not supposed to represent some sort of pinnacle of modern EV engineering.

Not going to be a Leaf. Gen 3's target is to be both affordable and compelling. Leaf performance wouldn't compel. The base model needs to match a base 3-series, so it'd need 7s or less 0 to 60, have good handling and then options for better performance (and more profit).

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Why wouldn't they release at LEAST two versions of the Model 3? A ~200 mile one and a ~300 mile one. That would stick with the trend from the model S and the X. Also why wouldn't they release a regular AND a performance version. Again, that would be following the trend of not just the S, but also the X AND the Roadster.

So at a minimum we have a 35k starting price for 200. Likely around 45k for 300 and I will say 55k for a performance. Now, given the MAJOR cost is not in the motor, and even if it was, you are talking about needing a less powerful motor to propel a lighter and smaller car, AND you are going to charge the same ~10k markup to get there... Why wouldn't it have the same speed and acceleration of the current cars? The motor is NOT the major cost here, it is the battery.

You're forgetting the bit in between: the inverter. Inverter costs have fallen, I believe, but it's still a big stumbling block. GM has designed/is working on a modular, scalable 50kW inverter for the Gen 2 Volt for that very reason.

 

[Doug_G]

I chalk that huge gap up to driver differences. On this page:
REFUEL 2014 - Clean Power Motorsports Event | SPORT ELECTRIC TT COMPETITION RESULTS
A Tesla employee was (barely) faster than Joe. But this just reinforces my point in this thread. A RWD Model S runs neck and neck w/ the Roadster *today*.

The Tesla Employees at Refuel this year were not running stock firmware - reportedly they had different thermal management. That would make a huge difference. The results from the 2013 Tesla Employees being so much better suggests that they were running special firmware too.

The one that's impressive to me is the non-employee who broke 2 minutes in the Model S. Assuming that car was stock, he must have found a way to minimize heat production and save some thrust for the final straight. I'm thinking the best approach for TT, assuming you're already experienced with the track, is to do the TT as your first run of the day.

 

[miimura]

The Tesla Employees at Refuel this year were not running stock firmware - reportedly they had different thermal management. That would make a huge difference. The results from the 2013 Tesla Employees being so much better suggests that they were running special firmware too.

The one that's impressive to me is the non-employee who broke 2 minutes in the Model S. Assuming that car was stock, he must have found a way to minimize heat production and save some thrust for the final straight. I'm thinking the best approach for TT, assuming you're already experienced with the track, is to do the TT as your first run of the day.

Sure, if you're going to change firmware, one obvious change for time trial is to set the battery and inverter cooling loops to go below ambient before starting to race. Of course, increasing the cooling available would be better.

 

[djp]

I think the disappointed people will include those who prepaid for the battery pack swap, who I expect will have the first 53kWh "comped" and then have to pay the price of the rest of it, since the contract does state similar energy storage.

Agreed, Tesla will probably treat it like the Model S 40 by installing a 100kWh pack for those who prepaid, but limiting it in software to 53kWh. Unlocking the full range would cost an extra $20K or so. I can't see them going through the engineering effort to build an actual 53kWh pack with the new cells.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

Since Tesla will not make possible SuperCharging for the Roadster maybe that some Roadster owners will modify the new Battery Pack and plug and so on in order the Roadster to become able of SuperCharging?
We know that a Roadster owner designed and produced a Model s to Roadster adapter. Maybe that some other Roadster owners will make it possible SuperCharging also for the Roadster?

We know that Roadster owners are very envious of Model S owners. :wink:

 

[Mitrovic]

@Mitrovic

I gave a look to this video. Amazing! I have been hit by the fact that IMO you almost never used the brakes. Am I right?

No, you are not right. I did use the brakes heavily. Thank you for the invention of ABS! Several times I overshot and Adrenalin was rushing my veins, hoping that I will make the turn however!

Here is another video of me driving the Klausenrennen:

Klausenrennen 2013 Tesla Roadster Sport - YouTube

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Cool video. Thanks for sharing! But why do you say that neither Model S or Model 3 will beat the Roadster on that track? Do you think the Roadster has a higher top speed? Better cooling so it can run at high speed longer? For Model S from what I hear about the REFUEL events I would agree but I have to believe that Tesla will have improved the cooling for Model 3. I still think the low CG and higher traction will allow it to take corners at higher speed and since Model S out-accelerates the Roadster at higher speeds I think we can say the same for Model 3.

I'm really not trying to be a troll. Do you all agree that having Model 3 out-perform the Roadster is good for Tesla and good for EVs. IMO it would be very bad if Tesla's newest model was slower than it's 10-year-old one. Am I missing something?

Cornering speed. Sharp bends. The suspension of Model S and the future Model 3 is / will be set for much more comfort. OK if you let a tuner work on those cars, but at such a mountain track, I can't see MS and M3 climb that fast!

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Well done - that looks like FUN .
Like to hear more about car and stats on that little jaunt
Eg were you bouncing off the top temperature bars on motor .. (and PEM / ESS)

Yes indeed. All 5 Tesla's overheated. But so did most of the other cars, including race cars.

All 5 Tesla's were much faster then predicted. It was an old-timer race. We have been beaten only by two Audi Quattros' the real rally beasts! One driven by LeMans winner Marcel Fässler!

 

[Raffy.Roma]

Klausenrennen 2013 Tesla Roadster Sport - YouTube

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Cornering speed. Sharp bends. The suspension of Model S and the future Model 3 is / will be set for much more comfort. OK if you let a tuner work on those cars, but at such a mountain track, I can't see MS and M3 climb that fast!

I gave a look. Cool! You made me come the wish to drive a Roadster. :wink:

 

[Raffy.Roma]

Since Tesla will not make possible SuperCharging for the Roadster maybe that some Roadster owners will modify the new Battery Pack and plug and so on in order the Roadster to become able of SuperCharging?
We know that a Roadster owner designed and produced a Model s to Roadster adapter. Maybe that some other Roadster owners will make it possible SuperCharging also for the Roadster?

We know that Roadster owners are very envious of Model S owners. :wink:

Somebody can answer to my question?

 

[FANGO]

Somebody can answer to my question?

No, there will be no supercharging on the roadster.

 

[hcsharp]

Somebody can answer to my question?

Nobody knows for sure if there will ever be supercharging for the Roadster. It looks unlikely. There is one thing that I can say with some certainty, and that is that it would be almost impossible for some clever individual to do it on their own without support from Tesla. It requires serial communication between the car and the external DC charger. Many parameters have to be communicated to prevent overheating, over-charging, etc. Nobody knows the protocol and it's likely that they have some kind of security built in so that only cars that are equipped with the right hardware and software can do it. Maybe it's no harder than decoding a can bus, but I doubt it.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

Nobody knows for sure if there will ever be supercharging for the Roadster. It looks unlikely. There is one thing that I can say with some certainty, and that is that it would be almost impossible for some clever individual to do it on their own without support from Tesla. It requires serial communication between the car and the external DC charger. Many parameters have to be communicated to prevent overheating, over-charging, etc. Nobody knows the protocol and it's likely that they have some kind of security built in so that only cars that are equipped with the right hardware and software can do it. Maybe it's no harder than decoding a can bus, but I doubt it.

Hi hcsharp! I was thinking exactly to you when I mentioned a Roadster owner designing and producing a Model S to Roadster adapter. :smile:
Thank you for your answer.

 

[Doug_G]

It's probably possible to charge the Roadster on DC power, through the PEM, although I don't know if would require firmware fudging.

You'd have to provide the right DC voltage at sufficient current. It's probably possible to trick a Chademo into delivering what you need. I bet someone with too much time on their hands could figure out how to build an adapter. It wouldn't be much faster than 240V 70A, but there's a lot of Chademo chargers in certain regions.

 

[spaceballs]

btw I emailed my local service center if they have any idea of availability of the new battery pack, their response.

"At this point your guess is as good as mine regarding the Roadster Battery Pack "