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New S Plaid HP/trap/technical discussion

Watts_Up

Active Member
Mar 4, 2019
3,350
2,263
In a galaxy far, far away
Plaid + is clearly going to use 4680 cells. They simply are not ready to produce those in volume.
Higher energy density and discharge rate for the 4680 will be the reason Plaid + has much more range and quickness respectively.
Does the new LR and the Plaid will be using the 2170 cells or the older 18650 ?

when using the 4680, would a battery casting will be used for the Model S Plaid+ ?
 

MagnusMako

Member
Jan 29, 2019
770
1,322
Austin, TX
I know not everyone is concerned with performance but this thread is for those who are! I am really scratching my head over the trap speed (155) and trying to break the numbers down in my head. I thought peak power happens on a P100D around 45 MPH, and that it was limited to battery output. I understand Plaid will have much more power but from where? With range being similar (any chance of software limiting?) are they just dumping way more amps? Can we assume voltage is the same? Are the motors really THAT much more efficient making power? I just can't wrap my head around the current needed to run a 155 quarter mile, even if it is only 9.23 seconds at a time LOL!

It would appear to be a combination of improvements as cited in yesterdays presentation. This includes a fully redesigned battery pack and modules along with model 3 and Y motor tech to enable 5x more high-speed quarter-mile runs in addition to a unique high-speed, high-power rotor...

SimprovementsExplained.png
 

byeLT4

Member
Feb 16, 2017
713
688
Texas
Whoa!! No way, I was thinking that the "Yoke" steering wheel would be reserved to the Plaid+, but not, even the LR will have it !!!!

Scratching my head, still so many questions:

1. I wonder why the Plaid+ will be only available only "Late 2021" (?)
4680 cells
3. Why so much delay since the Plaid (thee-motor) will be available in March 2021? (even with Torque Vectoring)
4680 cells
4. Could this delay explain the use of 4680 Cells for the Plaid+ ?
Our best guess
5. Would a Track Mode be available in the future, to get the Nürburgring fastest EV time !!!
We could assume
5. What could be the Plaid+ battery size to explain the 520 Miles+ instead of 390 Miles?
Would love to know LOL, 120-135kW?
5. Would the European Model S have the CCS 2 port like the Model 3/Y to get access to fast chargers?
Hope so
7. Could an even faster Plaid++ would be possible in 3 to 5 years?
Absolutely
8. Would a two speed gearbox would be added in the future?
I think the carbon sleeving and max power output to top speed makes the gearbox unnecessary. Although 250MPH is gonna take a lot of RPM.....

Best guesses on the answers, feel free to pick apart LOL!
 
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byeLT4

Member
Feb 16, 2017
713
688
Texas
I'm leaning towards Plaid+ with the upgraded brakes and all but as far as the actual car having the 4860s? Good question.
 

MarcG

Active Member
Oct 29, 2014
3,059
2,020
San Francisco
Clearly Plaid+ since they showed the lap time and announced the car at the end of their Battery Day presentation to showcase the power of the 4680 cells.
 
Last edited:

whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,566
7,892
Seattle area, WA
@whitex The "*" indicates the time is measured with 1 foot rollout. Also, the base model's 3.1 to sixty time doesn't have that note.

@Jswyft What do you disagree with?
So they are pulling same old marketing tricks to make Plaid look better than it really is? Measure the 0-60 differently on Long Range than Plaid, to make the difference look bigger than it really is. *sigh* Come on Tesla, do you really have to fudge the numbers like this? How about measure all your cars consistently the same way (with or without rollout, pick one and stick with it).

But then again, Tesla duped me into paying you $25K more for only 50hp extra by specing the hp on 85D vs P85D differently (85D had real hp listed, while P85D had theoretical hp if the motors were put into a different car with a much better battery which Tesla hasn't invented at that time yet, something Tesla didn't admit till 2 years after they got my money), so perhaps this is an effective car salesman marketing technique. Worked better on me than "what can we do to get you into this car today sir" ever did.
 
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46&2

Member
Dec 15, 2014
338
185
Switzerland
I can answer only this one: YES! it's mandatory by law this side of the pond.
Since when?
You can buy a Model X (LR+, in stock) WITHOUT CCS today, and get it in a few days. The same has been possible before, in fact every Model S and X bought in 2020 came with an adapter (or had to be updated to CCS-charging via adapter).

? Explain, please :)
 

mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
13,034
39,249
Michigan
Any motor experts here who could explain how carbon sleeving allows higher power to be held to higher rpm?
I don't think the sleeve itself did it...

To touch on the first post,
I thought peak power happens on a P100D around 45 MPH, and that it was limited to battery output.
There is a maximum power the pack can supply; however, the power the motor can put out rolls off at higher speed due to back EMF (voltage) proportional to RPM which reduces the effective voltage across the motor windings which reduces the current in the motor which reduces power.

Two ways to shift the roll off point: one is to boost the pack voltage, this is unlikely to maintain supercharger compatibility (you can divide the pack in half and switch from parallel to series, but that adds complexity). The other is to change the RPM versus voltage ratio by altering the motor windings or construction.

Decreasing the windings proportionally decreases the back EMF but it also reduces the torque you get for a fixed amount of current. However, at low speeds, the drive electronics are limiting torque anyway, so no biggie.

At least, those are the normal ways...
Tesla did something a little different, Plaid is tri-motor, so the rear drive unit went from one motor to two. That means each motor only needs to put out half the power, meaning half the torque for a given RPM. Less torque is less current and needs less voltage across the motor meaning the point where back-EMF limits power shifts upward by a bunch. At the same time, the low end max torque output is cut in half per motor, so you can rewind the motor with say half the windings, and keep the same drive electronics. This winding change also halves the back-EMF pushing the power reduction region even higher. Net result: no motor induced power roll off within the operating range.

Or something like that :)

The carbon part may be for strength due to shinking the rotors to fit two in the samish volume. Less diameter means less torque for the same current, so they may have boosted the max RPM to compensate. Or maybe mass reduction.
 

TIppy

Active Member
Jul 8, 2016
1,503
1,107
Tampa, FL
There is an article that says that having the permanent magnets internal to the rotor on the reluctance motors allows them to counteract the back emf by properly phasing and shaping the rotating stator magnetic field.
 

MarcG

Active Member
Oct 29, 2014
3,059
2,020
San Francisco
There is an article that says that having the permanent magnets internal to the rotor on the reluctance motors allows them to counteract the back emf by properly phasing and shaping the rotating stator magnetic field.

Interesting! Do you have a link to the article?
 

mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
13,034
39,249
Michigan
There is an article that says that having the permanent magnets internal to the rotor on the reluctance motors allows them to counteract the back emf by properly phasing and shaping the rotating stator magnetic field.

It can change the amount and shape of the field; however, there must always be back EMF, without that voltage, there can be no power output P=I*V.
That said, a pure reluctance motor has no back-EMF when not driven/ energized electronically nor does an AC induction motors. Field phasing can also let you trade off speed for torque.
 
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BigNick

Disaffected Member
Dec 3, 2017
1,155
1,394
Pennsylvania, USA
So they are pulling same old marketing tricks to make Plaid look better than it really is? Measure the 0-60 differently on Long Range than Plaid, to make the difference look bigger than it really is. *sigh* Come on Tesla, do you really have to fudge the numbers like this? How about measure all your cars consistently the same way (with or without rollout, pick one and stick with it).

But then again, Tesla duped me into paying you $25K more for only 50hp extra by specing the hp on 85D vs P85D differently (85D had real hp listed, while P85D had theoretical hp if the motors were put into a different car with a much better battery which Tesla hasn't invented at that time yet, something Tesla didn't admit till 2 years after they got my money), so perhaps this is an effective car salesman marketing technique. Worked better on me than "what can we do to get you into this car today sir" ever did.

The "670 hp" advertised of the new "base" Model S translates to 500 kW, which is more than my P85DL has ever produced. I haven't even seen 450 kW - best I've seen during a logged (TM-Spy) run was 429.5 kW, about 576 hp. I bought my car used and it had already had V9 installed. I really doubt, even with the L upgrade, that it hit 691 when new, let alone the 742 or whatever Tesla advertised.

Still not sure how they got away with that one. I once worked with a guy who would have been all over the TV news, armed with dyno results proving Tesla was lying, but he was a motorcycle guy, and not a car (or EV) guy. Ducatis and such were his toys, he had a Dodge Ram for hauling them.
 
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