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New Southern California edison time of use rates

Discussion in 'California' started by qphan79, Jan 3, 2015.

  1. qphan79

    qphan79 Member

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    I just received a letter from SCE that they are introducing new time of use plans (see link below). Trying to figure out what is the best plan for those of us with a Tesla as well as solar panels. I am sure SCE is trying to squeeze more money out of us...Option A has something listed called "baseline allocation credit of -.10 per kwh". Is that their way of getting around net metering by only giving .10 per kwh of generated solar power?? Option B doesn't have that credit but they charge a higher monthly fee of $16. The there's the off-peak savings plan which has a much longer off peak time but is tiered so you could potentially get screwed there too! Anyone have any suggestions on the ideal plan?

    Residential Rate Plans | Rates | Your Home | Home - SCE
     
  2. mdemetri

    mdemetri Member

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    #2 mdemetri, Jan 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2015
    With Solar and a BEV, the best plan is the "Home & Electric Vehicle Plan" or "Time of use domestic tiered electric vehicle charging' plan (https://www.sce.com/NR/sc3/tm2/pdf/CE324.pdf). This plan does not appear new or changed to me on the SCE website (see link below). I have been on this plan for nearly two years. It works great, I pump electrons into the system during the day from my solar at the highest rates and then charge my P85 at night with the lowest rates. I have had a net negative bill from SCE ever since. Current rates are attached (effective since July 7, 2014):

    [​IMG]

    Electric Vehicle Rates | Rates | Your Home | Home - SCE
     

    Attached Files:

  3. astrotoy

    astrotoy Member

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    I'm in the SF Bay area and am using the PGE EV TOU rates, which look very similar to the EV TOU of SCE. I have solar panels and my meter runs backwards and forwards, depending on power generation and consumption. Since my panels only generate electricity during the peak times, I always get credit at the highest rates. OTOH, I always charge my Tesla from 11PM on, when the lowest EV TOU rates apply (in my case it is 10c/kwh). So basically I sell at about 35c/kwh depending on time of year, and I mostly buy at 10c/kwh. I think that should be how that new TOU plan works for the EV plan. The -10c baseline allocation sounds to me like for the first tier of use you get 10c subtracted from the TOU rates, so if the rate is 36c at peak times, then you pay 26c, and if the rate at night is 11c, then you pay 1c. The key to net metering is whether your meter runs backwards, so you subtract from your usage when the generation is greater than the consumption, and if that applies if your total generation is greater than consumption for a particular billing cycle. We tend to be away during some peak generation months, so we typically get a couple of negative bills a year.
     
  4. qphan79

    qphan79 Member

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    Mdemetri...the link I sent shows the two new rates. I received a letter in the mail that says I have to switch to one of the two.
     
  5. mdemetri

    mdemetri Member

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    qphan79...I am also on SCE and but did not get a letter of a change. However, when I opened your link, it is not the Time of use electric vehicle plan. It is the regular residential rate plan with tiers. For people with solar and a BEV, these plans are not the best. If you look at the top left of the page on your link you will see a link for electric vehicle plan. Click on this and then scroll down and you will see a tab for "Home & Electric Vehicle Plan". For BEV plus solar, this is by far the most advantageous plan. While the tiered residential plans may be changing, I see no change in the electric vehicle plans (and likely the reason I did not get a letter).
     
  6. qphan79

    qphan79 Member

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    I am on the same plan as you...the letter says I will be automatically switched in February.

    - - - Updated - - -

    image.jpg image.jpg
     
  7. mdemetri

    mdemetri Member

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    qphan79 - I stand corrected; I just got the same letter from SCE in my mailbox today. It looks like the major change is the peak time being changed to 2-8pm instead of 10am-6pm. Of course, this removes the peak time for solar generation (11am-2pm). A coincidence, I think not. SCE claims that they have expanded the super off peak from 10pm-8am, thereby allowing more time for charging your EV at the lowest rates. What a crock.
     
  8. qphan79

    qphan79 Member

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    #8 qphan79, Jan 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2015
    Exactly...they are totally targeting users just like us. The question then is which plan screws us the least? I am highly skeptical of the off peak saving plan that they claim is best for high usage users and those with solar. Even though option A is recommended for users with less than 700kwh per month, wouldn't net metering mean that we would get a credit at the higher rate?
     
  9. Leland

    Leland Member

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    Our letter also arrived today. With any of the new options, we're going to be paying a lot more for electricity each month. It's going to be very difficult to figure out the break even point on our 32 panel system!
     
  10. qphan79

    qphan79 Member

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    Did you also see that they now changed the summer months to only June-September?? So "winter" is now 8 months! That cuts down the amount of credit you can create with net metering during the summer days....
     
  11. Bubbletips

    Bubbletips Member

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    Bummer. I got the letter that will switch me automatically in Feb. too.

    Is there anything we can do to protest future electricity rate hikes targeted at EV owners with solar?
     
  12. mdemetri

    mdemetri Member

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    I think we should all file a complaint with the California Public Utilities Commission (File A Complaint
    ) as well as send a letter to the Governors office. This is a clear and unabashed attack on people with solar and BEV. SCE has been trying every way they can to regain revenue from solar producers and this is a clear attack on those who have committed significant capital to solar panels to run their BEV. At the very least, those who have already committed capital, the rules of the game should not change. We should be grandfathered in. There is no valid reason that peak time should not be the same as peak costs SCE pays on the wholesale market, which is daytime, not 2-8pm.

    Of the available options, Option A appears to be the best. All I can say is I cannot wait until I can buy a battery from Tesla for storage to avoid these shenanigans. That way I can store my solar energy during off-peak and use it during the supposed 'on peak' time of 2-8pm.
     
  13. mdemetri

    mdemetri Member

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    I submitted the complaint below to CPUC (File A Complaint) and I suggest that others submit similar complaints:

    "Today I received a letter from SCE stating that my TOU-D-TEV (Time of use domestic tiered electric vehicle) plan will be changed Feb 1st 2014 to a TOU-D plan. This change has been done without any prior consultation of affected customers. The TOU-D plan changes the time when peak rates are calculated, from 10am-6pm to 2pm to 8pm. The new TOU-D plan specifically removes the peak time for solar generation (11am-2pm). There is no valid reason that peak time should be different than the peak costs SCE pays on the wholesale market, which is not 2-8pm. SCE claims that they have expanded the super off peak from 10pm-8am, thereby allowing more time for charging your EV at the lowest rates. It only takes me 2-3 hrs to charge my EV every night and increased time is of zero benefit. This change is an outright attack on many of us who have home solar generation and electric vehicles. It is a clear attempt to regain lost revenue from home solar generators who also have electric vehicles.

    The TOU-D -TEV plan should not be altered on established customers as it dramatically changes the pay-back for our solar array. At the very least, CPUC should mandate that those who have already committed capital should not have the rules of the game changed mid-stream. Rather, we should be grandfathered in so that the capital we invested has the pay-back that we expected when we purchased a home solar array and an electric vehicle. I expect to be contacted by someone from CPUC, not SCE."
     
  14. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    I don't think the CPUC will have any sympathy for you. The PG&E "Experimental EV Rate" E-9 and the newer Schedule EV have had their peak hours defined as 2pm-9pm since inception. SCE's EV rate was clearly MUCH more advantageous to solar+EV customers. Now you're going to be in the same boat as us. Get used to it. Those of us on E-9 will be kicked off to another rate schedule as well. My projected annual true-up will increase by less than 5% by going to Schedule EV though.
     
  15. mdemetri

    mdemetri Member

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    Two wrongs don't make a right! More importantly, this is a change in an existing plan that is >2 years old. Many of us committed capital based on the existing plan. This should not be changed mid-stream as it directly impacts the pay-back period. As PG&E had peak time of 2-9pm from inception, those customers knew upfront when the peak rates would be before committing capital. Very different situation with SCE here in SoCal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I sent the following email to the Governor:

    "Dear Governor Brown

    I am a home solar generator and electric vehicle owner. I have committed significant capital to improve the environment of California as I believe this is crucial to our future. Today (Jan 3, 2015) I received a letter from Southern California Edison stating that my "Time of use domestic tiered electric vehicle" (TOU-D-TEV) rate plan will be changed Feb 1st 2014 to a TOU-D plan. This change has been done with less than 1 month notice and without any prior consultation of affected customers. The new TOU-D plan specifically punishes home solar generators with electric vehicles by changing the time when peak rates are calculated from 10am-6pm to 2pm to 8pm. The new TOU-D plan specifically removes the peak time for solar generation (11am-2pm). Coincidence? I think not!!! There is no valid reason that peak time charged to customers should be different than the peak costs SCE pays on the wholesale market for electricity, which is not 2-8pm. The new TOU-D plan dramatically changes the pay-back for our solar array. This change by Southern California Edison is an outright attack on many of us who have home solar generation and electric vehicles. It is a clear attempt to regain lost revenue from home solar generators who also have electric vehicles.


    As you know, California's public utilities have been trying every way they can to regain revenue from solar producers. When you signed AB-327, you stated the following: "As the CPUC considers rules regarding grandfathering of net metering customers, I expect the Commission to ensure that customers who took service under net metering prior to reaching the statutory net metering cap on or before July 1, 2017, are protected under those rules for the expected life of their systems.” While the elimination of the TOU-D-TEV plan does not directly alter the net metering agreement for established customers, it has the same effect. It dramatically lowers the credits that home solar generators receive for their energy by applying lower rates at peak times of solar generation. In effect it punishes those who have done the most to improve the environment in California ( i.e. home solar array plus electric vehicle). The elimination of the TOU-D-TEV plan by SCE is is a clear attack on those who have committed significant capital to solar panels to power their electric vehicle. At the very least, those who have already committed significant capital should not have the rules of the game changed mid-stream. Rather, we should be grandfathered in so that the capital we invested has the pay-back that we expected when we purchased a home solar array and an electric vehicle.

    I urge you to have this change re-reveiwed by CPUC and/or consider legislative action. This is critical to improving the environment for all Californians by promoting the combination of solar arrays with electric vehicle use.


    Sincerely,


    Michael Demetriou"
     
  16. David_Cary

    David_Cary Member

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    #16 David_Cary, Jan 4, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2015
    I didn't read all the details but it seems like they are doing what makes sense. Of course it punishes people with solar installations. As new solar gets installed, the peak issues change. There will be a time when generation during daylight will be reimbursed less and less.

    This is just a fact of life with increasing solar installation. The early installers got an advantage and that makes sense.

    Here in NC, for 8 months of the year, 1-4 pm is off peak. Why - probably because lots of west facing panels make this a really cheap time of day to use electricity. It used to be 10am - 1pm but I think the increasing solar penetration biased to West facing changed that. The utility probably incentivised the commercial installations to build West facing because it helped with peak issues in the summer. NC is somehow the state with 4th highest solar installed capacity. In 2013 we were 3rd in new installations.

    I have solar. The biggest problem with solar is that electricity is generated during sunlight hours only. Sunlight will become off peak (and it already is in the winter here). This is rational and complaining to the CPUC is complaining about rational energy use and pricing. CA has had a rate structure that IMO overly encouraged solar installation. Perhaps that made sense at one time but reality is changing.

    Peak use in CA is just after sunset if I'm not mistaken (and I'm sure in NC). Solar does not remove the super peaks anymore.

    2013 was a doubling of CA solar generation. Perhaps 2014 was another doubling. At that trend line, off peak 8 months of the year will be sunrise to sunset in another year or two. We will start charging our EVs during the day soon enough.

    (At least from what I've read but I don't live it like you do)
     
  17. mdemetri

    mdemetri Member

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    All that matters is peak demand, not peak generation. Please have a look at the linked article below from Stanford. Figure 1 shows California's expected peak electricity demand in the year 2020 during the day during 4 different months. During the summer (i.e. July) the total peak demand (i.e. area under the curve) is clearly 10am-6pm (i.e. the same time period as our current TOU plan). In the other three months (Jan, April and October) the total peak demand is very similar or slightly greater between 10am-6pm (old TOU plan) than 2-8pm (new TOU plan). (Note that for Jan, April and October, I base this conclusion on eyeballing the data; as without having the actual data, it is difficult to exactly determine the total demand during the two time periods).

    So based on this, I see no justification in changing the peak time to 2-8pm other than to extract money from home Solar generators.

    https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/CombiningRenew/HosteFinalDraft
     
  18. David_Cary

    David_Cary Member

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    Sorry - I read that link. Doesn't make any sense to me. You generate too much at noon and not enough at 8 pm - relative to demand. How does that not matter?

    One article. Peer reviewed? Doesn't look like it. Author doesn't have much in the way of real credentials. Good Pole Vaulter apparently though... Might be right might not.

    If they really wanted to extract money from solar generators, they wouldn't allow net metering, they wouldn't pay 35 cents a kwh for generation. I'm not sure where anyone anywhere thinks generation is worth 35 cents. Not when anyone can build a solar farm to generate far less than that. 35 cents is absolutely ridiculous and is not fair to the non solar generators when you think about it.

    I get paid 5-7 cents when I feed back. Far more expensive to Duke Progress than coal, ng, nuclear and wind. And you guys are whining about not getting 35 cents. Sorry, that doesn't float.

    Remember, anyone can build a solar farm. Fully capitalized, way less than 35 cents. Here they make it work with 7 cents feed in and 5 cents SREC.
     
  19. mdemetri

    mdemetri Member

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    Not sure where you see the data that we generate too much at noon and not enough at 8pm. Fig 2 and 3 show how renewables can be utilized at the expense of conventional sources to exactly meet demand in 2020 (I note that demand in Fig 1 and Fig 2/3 are different, but I assume this is due to different methodology). Currently, additional C02 emitting plants are turned on to meet peak demand. As this supply is turned on to meet demand, the only part of the equation that matters is demand. Supply has to meet demand or we have a blackout. This on demand energy results in highest costs. So in terms of costs, what matters is demand. Fig 2/3 show how we can reduce the conventional sources and still meet peak demand.

    I would note that the senior author on the paper (Marc Jacobsen) is a Professor of Civil and Environmental Engineering at Stanford University. He has extensive peer reviewed publications (>200) in this area (Mark Jacobson | Stanford Profiles).

    We do not get 35cents for our excess generation. We get a wholesale rate of ~3.5cents. This is a simple calculation in the net metering agreement: on an annual basis, total generation in excess of total used gets paid at the average wholesale rate (~3.5cents). This completely ignores TOU, even though costs of other electricity vary by time of day (see above). However, if one generates less than utilized, then the TOU retail rates comes into play to determine costs per month. Many of us sized our systems based on this plan and it should not be changed mid-stream. Moreover, costs for Solar were much higher several years ago and should not be confused with current costs. The early adopters of Solar should not have the game changed mid-stream. New Solar is different as the cost structure is much lower.
     
  20. wws

    wws Member

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    Solar has had a huge impact on moving the peak usage away from mid-afternoon in California. The California ISO (Independent System Operator) is responsible for the high tension network between the large energy producers and the local utilities. You can see the real-time demand at: http://www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html, and the previous days report at: http://content.caiso.com/green/renewrpt/DailyRenewablesWatch.pdf.

    I don't have an EV yet, but did just install some solar panels on my house. So this topic is of great interest to me... (FWIW, installed a NEMA 14-50 outlet at the same time.)
     

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