New Supercharger Locations

[gnuarm]

I don't know anything about how Tesla chooses or finances Supercharger installations. Do they ask the location owner to pay any of the installation? Will they install units at the request of the location owner if the owner pays for it?

I'm asking because a location which could sorely use a charger is a common stomping ground for me. I often drive up to Frederick, MD and have no real means of charging once there other than slow J-1772 units and one Chademo charger which was busy last time I needed it and no way to reach the car owner when the charge finished. My other alternatives are some destination chargers in Leesburg on my way back, but even that is slow for trip charging and not walkable to any shopping or whatever.

If I understood a bit about how Tesla gets Superchargers installed I might be able to encourage a merchant or two to get behind this. Tesla has had a Supercharger on the "future" map since I've been watching. I'd put in a wall connector in Frederick someplace useful but I expect it is expensive, likely over $1000 or maybe $1500 by the time it is installed. Even more if an outside cable has to be run.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Well, as you likely know, there are Superchargers in Gaithersburg and Hagerstown, both about 25 miles away from Frederick, and about 50 miles from each other. I really doubt that Tesla would consider the expense of installing a Supercharger in Frederick since there are two very close by.

How long do you spend in Frederick? What if you charge to 100% in Gaithersburg on your way there? Where do you stay? Can you charge there at 120v or 240v? If a hotel, as them if they can install a Wall Charger -- I think there's still a destination charger program where Tesla will supply the hardware if the hotel pays for installation and power.

 

[Derek Kessler]

Tesla chooses Supercharger locations by demand. There are several factors that go into "demand", including (but not limited to) resident population, visitors, drive-through traffic, Tesla ownership percentage, per capital income, and regional Supercharger use. Any of those being higher will equal a greater likelihood of installation. That's why California has an off-the-data Supercharger density and Kansas has enough to get you through the state. Eventually the plan is to get these built out to a greater degree that driving into the country and back won't be a white-knuckle range adventure.

As for financing: to my knowledge all publicly accessible Superchargers are financed exclusively by Tesla. They've partnered with some larger regional businesses to smooth along the process of finding locations (Meijer and Sheetz, for example), but generally they'll try to find a place you wouldn't mind being stuck for up to an hour and work with local businesses to find somebody that's willing to give up 8 parking spots in exchange for high-income foot traffic potential.

 

[gnuarm]

Well, as you likely know, there are Superchargers in Gaithersburg and Hagerstown, both about 25 miles away from Frederick, and about 50 miles from each other. I really doubt that Tesla would consider the expense of installing a Supercharger in Frederick since there are two very close by.

Yes, I am aware of the other chargers nearby... painfully aware. 25 miles is a *long* way out of your way to go to fuel up a car. I would say Tesla has already decided Frederick is a good spot to put a charger. The charger map shows one planned there for 2018 which is nearly over and the specific location is not selected as yet. So it is not at all clear to me the issue for Tesla is money as opposed to finding the right location.

How long do you spend in Frederick? What if you charge to 100% in Gaithersburg on your way there? Where do you stay? Can you charge there at 120v or 240v? If a hotel, as them if they can install a Wall Charger -- I think there's still a destination charger program where Tesla will supply the hardware if the hotel pays for installation and power.

I typically spend two nights there at a friend's house. I don't even park in their driveway, so charging overnight from 120 volts is not much of an option. Gaithersburg is on a main commuting road for the DC suburbs so I avoid it like the plague. Hagerstown is the opposite direction for me.

This is particularly painful for me for a couple of reasons. I am originally from Frederick and like to visit friends there. So the present charging situation there, which is worse than nearly any city I've visited, makes it difficult. Then on top of that I get a lot of questions about charging and I've been telling everyone that charging is not really a problem. I thought that was true since it hadn't been yet... but with the colder weather setting in I'm finding being connected to a 120 volt outlet is not enough current to preheat the car and in particular the battery! So instead of being able to charge to the full range my model X is capable of I am getting a fraction of that and can't make the round trip without a significant charge at some point.

Maybe it's my fault for believing the range numbers I read before I bought the car. It's not easy to find real info on what to expect from the car. I expected a car with a 290 mile range would be enough for a 240 mile trip, but this is not so in the winter.

 

[TexasEV]

Plugshare shows 10 locations of J1772s and one CHAdeMO in Frederick. Have you looked at any of those?

 

[gnuarm]

Tesla chooses Supercharger locations by demand. There are several factors that go into "demand", including (but not limited to) resident population, visitors, drive-through traffic, Tesla ownership percentage, per capital income, and regional Supercharger use. Any of those being higher will equal a greater likelihood of installation. That's why California has an off-the-data Supercharger density and Kansas has enough to get you through the state. Eventually the plan is to get these built out to a greater degree that driving into the country and back won't be a white-knuckle range adventure.

Sure, but clearly Tesla has decided Frederick is a good choice for a Supercharger since they have one indicated on the map for installation in 2018 which is about over. This isn't about whether or not one is needed/wanted, this question is about how we can influence the result.

As for financing: to my knowledge all publicly accessible Superchargers are financed exclusively by Tesla. They've partnered with some larger regional businesses to smooth along the process of finding locations (Meijer and Sheetz, for example), but generally they'll try to find a place you wouldn't mind being stuck for up to an hour and work with local businesses to find somebody that's willing to give up 8 parking spots in exchange for high-income foot traffic potential.

There is the cost of the facility, but there is also the cost of the location or even permission. I've looked at the map and know the area very well. I don't think there is an ideal location (because of *my* definition of "ideal") but a location that would likely suit the rest of the world very well including Tesla, Tesla owners and the property owners is the FSK mall on Rt 270. I can even tell you the optimal location for car owners which would place it walking distance from a number of adequate restaurants. So the question is who to bug, Tesla or the mall owners?

I'm not sure your analysis of the give and take is accurate. I don't think Sheetz is anyone's idea of a good place to spend an hour waiting for your car to charge. If I'm spending more than 20 minutes I want a place to sit and eat and relax.

Personally I think with the intro of the model 3 Tesla has achieved the goal of a creating a battery electric "everyman's" vehicle or close enough. They will be getting the price tag down to the promised $35,000 in the next year or so. I believe they can ramp production to their goal of 10,000 units a week. That is half a million a year. What I don't believe is that they will be able to sell that many for very much longer unless they put in a *lot* more charging stations for traveling. I believe some of the delay was the need to maintain a bottom line for the last quarter. I don't expect they will have the same problem this quarter, so more money should loosen up soon.

When it comes to staying in hotels even a slow J1772 charger will top me off overnight, no Supercharger is needed for that. Frederick only has one in a motel that I have found so far. So I don't think it is just me who would like to find a better charging solutions in Frederick. It's not like Frederick is out of the way.

Sorry if this got a bit long.

 

[TexasEV]

Tesla’s coming soon map for superchargers has always been more aspirational than informational. In Texas, Ft. Stockton and Wichita Falls have been coming soon every year since 2014 I think. Ft. Stockton just opened last month and there no sign yet of Wichita Falls. Both are on major highways important for long distance travel. Tesla can’t build everywhere at once. It’s just unrealistic to expect that every small town the size of Frederick, Maryland will have a supercharger. They’re intended primarily for traveling, not destination charging. Route yourself through Gaithersburg or take a side trip to Hagerstown if you don’t want to use a J1772 or CHAdeMO in Frederick. Or have you thought of installing a NEMA 14-50 at a friend’s house if you’re there often?

 

[HankLloydRight]

Tesla’s coming soon map for superchargers has always been more aspirational than informational.

Could not be closer to the truth!

There have been two "coming soon" SC pins in Stamford, CT for over a year now, possibly even two years. I went to town hall to see if Tesla filed for plans at planning and zoning or anywhere else.. and they had no idea what I was talking about. The pins are just "yeah, maybe when we get around to it we want to put a SC here."

 

[gnuarm]

Tesla’s coming soon map for superchargers has always been more aspirational than informational. In Texas, Ft. Stockton and Wichita Falls have been coming soon every year since 2014 I think. Ft. Stockton just opened last month and there no sign yet of Wichita Falls. Both are on major highways important for long distance travel. Tesla can’t build everywhere at once. It’s just unrealistic to expect that every small town the size of Frederick, Maryland will have a supercharger. They’re intended primarily for traveling, not destination charging. Route yourself through Gaithersburg or take a side trip to Hagerstown if you don’t want to use a J1772 or CHAdeMO in Frederick. Or have you thought of installing a NEMA 14-50 at a friend’s house if you’re there often?

I'm not sure what your point is other than Tesla can't deliver on what is needed to make battery electric vehicles practical. Without adequate charging facilities BEVs will never be mainstream.

Funny you talk about Frederick as a "small town". It is the second largest city in the state of Maryland. Much larger than Gaithersburg. Population is not the driving factor in determining where charging facilities are located.

The reason I would like to see charging facilities in Frederick is for when I am traveling. I don't live in Frederick and there are no Superchargers on my 120 mile route. I don't plan my routes to take me out of my way through heavily congested areas if I can avoid it. That is the issue I would like to address. Of all the locations I've been traveling through, Frederick is the least facile for getting a BEV charged. It's not just the lack of a Supercharger, there are barely any facilities. I think your suggestion that I use a J1772 charger to be very disingenuous. That would take 10 or more hours and makes owning a BEV very impractical... which is exactly the issue I am trying to address. If BEVs are going to be more than a fad, significant charging facilities have to be available. I thought Tesla was the one car company that understood that which is why I bought a Tesla. I think some folks here don't really get that.

 

[gnuarm]

While researching this I found this article that says Tesla is also sponsoring the installation of destination chargers.

Tesla is paying for the deployment of destination AC chargers that all EVs can use

That's very interesting. I think some number of destination chargers scattered around the area could be much more effective in the long run than a bank of Superchargers.

 

[TexasEV]

You can continue to be upset that Tesla hasn't placed a supercharger in a convenient location for your specific situation of making a 240 mile round trip to Frederick, or you can accept that the benefits of driving an EV sometimes requires a small tradeoff in convenience in certain situations, and try to make it work. Not as much in 2018 as when I started driving a Tesla in 2013, but charging still isn’t going to be as ubiquitous as for an ICE yet.

I’m not suggesting you sit for 10 hours at a J1772. You might be able to charge at one overnight, or you might find that a 2 hour charge while you do something in the area gives you the extra range to make it back home. And what about the CHAdeMO station that I mentioned? It’s not as fast as a supercharger, but a 30 min charge there would probably be all you need to finish your trip. If you can’t accept these sugggestions then perhaps an EV isn’t for you. It’s not Tesla’s fault that it can’t accomodate all possible driving scenarios yet with perfect convenience.

I hear the route to Hagerstown is lovely. A side trip to the supercharger there would also solve your problem.

 

[gnuarm]

You can continue to be upset that Tesla hasn't placed a supercharger in a convenient location for your specific situation of making a 240 mile round trip to Frederick, or you can accept that the benefits of driving an EV sometimes requires a small tradeoff in convenience in certain situations, and try to make it work. Not as much in 2018 as when I started driving a Tesla in 2013, but charging still isn’t going to be as ubiquitous as for an ICE yet.

I’m not suggesting you sit for 10 hours at a J1772. You might be able to charge at one overnight, or you might find that a 2 hour charge while you do something in the area gives you the extra range to make it back home. And what about the CHAdeMO station that I mentioned? It’s not as fast as a supercharger, but a 30 min charge there would probably be all you need to finish your trip. If you can’t accept these sugggestions then perhaps an EV isn’t for you. It’s not Tesla’s fault that it can’t accomodate all possible driving scenarios yet with perfect convenience.

I hear the route to Hagerstown is lovely. A side trip to the supercharger there would also solve your problem.

Thank you for the advice.

I'm not trying to blame anyone for the limited charging facilities in Frederick. If you reread my original post you would see I have tried to research *all* available charging possibilities for my trip including the singular Chademo charger. I've even considered possible charging along my route through Leesburg and Warrenton. The point is the route and destination for this trip provide far from optimal charging. Instead of seeing this as whining, perhaps you can see my post as asking how I can do something about this?

I don't see any way I can influence an installation of Superchargers in Frederick, but I think I can have an impact on destination charging by contacting various property owners. Tesla seems to have a web page where you can inquire about this. So there is a path forward.

Perhaps folks here can see posts like this as valid statements of areas where improvement is needed rather than blaming the messenger. "perhaps an EV isn’t for you" is a poor response indeed. Perhaps Tesla should make that as their motto? I can see it on a banner in front of every sales room!

 

[HankLloydRight]

I guess I'm having trouble seeing how there aren't several places you could supercharge along your trip from South Carolina to Frederick. There seem to be at least a dozen different routes into Virginia, and then two main routes up to Frederick (see map below). You're saying that NONE of those superchargers are along your route? Even just a little bit out of your way to make your stay in Frederick charge free? And then on your way out of town, stop at Hagerstown or Gaithersburg?

When I first got my Tesla, I did a road trip from CT to Dayton, OH. Back then, there was no supercharging route through Pennsylvania (now there are several). I had to drive from Connecticut south to Newark, DE, north west to Hagerstown, MD, then to Somerset, PA, then really far north to Cranberry, PA, then west again. I actually had to plan to stop at an RV park in Zanesville to charge between Cranberry and Columbus (where there were only HPWC at the mall), but one week before my trip, a SC opened up at Wheeling/Triadelphia, WV which was like a godsend so I could avoid the RV park stop all together.

It's called the 'bleeding edge' for a reason. Until there's a charger in Frederick, it sure seems like there are lots of super charging options for you if you could be a little bit flexible in your planning and convictions. It's not that there aren't options for you, you're just choosing (for whatever reason) not to use them.

 

[TexasEV]

I don't see any way I can influence an installation of Superchargers in Frederick, but I think I can have an impact on destination charging by contacting various property owners. Tesla seems to have a web page where you can inquire about this.

The vast majority of locations for Tesla destination charging are hotels, for use by their guests. Hotels participate to attract customers. You said you stay at a friend’s house, so I don’t understand how this would be helpful to you. Other less common locations are vineyards and restaurants that attract business from a wide area, such as the former Peter Pan Inn in Frederick that I remember going to as a child. I miss their corn fritters!

I and many others here have asked hotel managers to participating Tesla’s destination charging program, with mixed success, and there’s certainly a need for that in Frederick so I hope you’re successful at it. But I don’t know what other property owners you think might be interested in paying for electricity for people who park there, and why those locations would be more convenient for you than the J1772s and CHAdeMO that already exist.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Maybe one of your friends has a 220V dryer plug they could let you use for a couple hours.

If you insist in parking on the street, you loose a lot of options.

Have faith. Lots of new Superchargers are opening up all the time. When Tesla indicates future plans for a charger, that is not a promise, but just their plans. Some communities are more open to being EV friendly than others. If the Mayor owns an ICE dealership, then don't expect him to go out of his way to encourage EV ammenities.

 

[Tam]

...Do they ask the location owner to pay any of the installation?...

In the old days, Tesla would take care of all of the supercharger cost such as permits, constructions, power usage... but it does not pay for parking space/land usage fee/lease.

I am not sure whether it is still true because Tesla is starting to charge customers power usage so why can't it share the revenue to the landowner too?

...Will they install units at the request of the location owner if the owner pays for it?...

I don't see why not as long as those superchargers still belong to Tesla.

 

[Ulmo]

Yes, I am aware of the other chargers nearby... painfully aware. 25 miles is a *long* way out of your way to go to fuel up a car. I would say Tesla has already decided Frederick is a good spot to put a charger. The charger map shows one planned there for 2018 which is nearly over and the specific location is not selected as yet. So it is not at all clear to me the issue for Tesla is money as opposed to finding the right location.




I typically spend two nights there at a friend's house. I don't even park in their driveway, so charging overnight from 120 volts is not much of an option. Gaithersburg is on a main commuting road for the DC suburbs so I avoid it like the plague. Hagerstown is the opposite direction for me.

This is particularly painful for me for a couple of reasons. I am originally from Frederick and like to visit friends there. So the present charging situation there, which is worse than nearly any city I've visited, makes it difficult. Then on top of that I get a lot of questions about charging and I've been telling everyone that charging is not really a problem. I thought that was true since it hadn't been yet... but with the colder weather setting in I'm finding being connected to a 120 volt outlet is not enough current to preheat the car and in particular the battery! So instead of being able to charge to the full range my model X is capable of I am getting a fraction of that and can't make the round trip without a significant charge at some point.

Maybe it's my fault for believing the range numbers I read before I bought the car. It's not easy to find real info on what to expect from the car. I expected a car with a 290 mile range would be enough for a 240 mile trip, but this is not so in the winter.

You could use their dryer plug depending on how open they are to plugging things in. Some people are resistant to that, and for good reason: it can be a hassle, and dangerous if the wiring is bad or an extension cord is used (I own a dryer plug extension cord, and I learned to reduce its amps to lower than the NEC maximum for safety reasons).

 

[Chuq]

Just for interests sake, I thought I'd compare this poorly-supercharger-served city of Frederick to the nearest major city to me, Melbourne (population 4.4 million).

Maps are at the same scale.

 

[Ulmo]

Looks like Tesla made it through 2018 Thanksgiving travels with SuperChargers very well, in California.

 

[israndy]

Good to hear, is that just from your experience? Why do you think there were no long queues?

-Randy