scott1954wa
Member
I agree, but it is the perfect time to trench and install the conduit for electrical with the lower level closed.
New Supercharger Permit in Seattle - Northgate Mall
- Thread starter homegrown77
- Start date
Okay but I literally got out and walked around that level of the parking garage. The entire level was blocked off to traffic and there was just that one fence down the middle. Nothing resembling anything related to a supercharger was lying around. And they certainly wouldn't block off half of that level for supercharger construction, which would take up maybe 10% of that area at most. Also the other parking garage has many levels, including levels 1 and 2.
Based upon the original Site Plan from 2019, it's going to be in the NW corner of that West garage. Cabinets and transformer on the lower floor and pedestals on the upper floor.
A few other tidbits looking through the permit docs:
1. The original plans call out 20 stalls, but later documents specify 16.
2. A July 31, 2020 response letter from the engineering firm specifies "The electrical contractor will be assigned at a later date" so it doesn't look like any construction has started yet.
3. The original plans specify 72kW charging posts, but a July 2, 2020 letter from the engineering firm does mention the design has been upgraded to meet V3 specifications. Here is the exact wording:
The electrical design has been updated to meet revised specifications for Tesla’s V3 supercharging system. The updates include:
A few other tidbits looking through the permit docs:
1. The original plans call out 20 stalls, but later documents specify 16.
2. A July 31, 2020 response letter from the engineering firm specifies "The electrical contractor will be assigned at a later date" so it doesn't look like any construction has started yet.
3. The original plans specify 72kW charging posts, but a July 2, 2020 letter from the engineering firm does mention the design has been upgraded to meet V3 specifications. Here is the exact wording:
The electrical design has been updated to meet revised specifications for Tesla’s V3 supercharging system. The updates include:
- Revised the breaker size to 600A on single line diagram and panel schedule.
- Updated conduit and conductors for items 1 and 2 on “Feeder Schedule”.
- Updated main bus size to 2000A on single line diagram.
- Updated kVA input to cabinet, AC input current to cabinet, and DC bus current in cabinet on Tesla charging cabinet and "Post Electrical Specs” table.
- Updated switchgear to updated Tesla specifications.
That would be a GREAT spot in my opinion although I admit I'm not that familiar with what the mall is going to look like once they are done with all the construction.
FWIW, I did also drive around on that upper level yesterday and I didn't see any signs of any construction of any sort.
scott1954wa
Member
Here is the future vision for Northgate. The west garage is a great location. West is on the bottom
scott1954wa
Member
The permit cycle on this project has gone through many revisions, but it appears it may have been finalized on 9/18. Attachments to this documentation includes V3 Supercharger specifications, so I will take that to indicate that V3 will be installed
The crew in Ballard told me they'd be moving on to Northgate once they finish in Ballard, so construction in Northgate could start as soon as a couple weeks. They said it would be 32(!) stalls. Sounded like v3.
Chuq
Active Member
I can't say for sure, but a V3 supercharger at that scale is more likely to be 28 stalls. Apparently up to 7 cabinets can be connected together to share power via DC, making 28 stalls (7x4) a common V3 SC size. Note Quartzsite, Paso Robles are 28, and Firebaugh is 56 (two separate strings of 7 cabinets).
Of course that's not to say a 32 stall V3 is impossible but it could be 32 urban superchargers, for example. Or perhaps 28 V3 stalls and 4 destination chargers.
Do we really need that much? Maybe they are planning for some robotaxi fleet in the future.
Interesting. I was unaware of the 7 cabinet issue.
A lot of the newer mall superchargers in this area have HPWCs as well, so one possibility is that it might be 20 v3 stalls and 12 HPWCs or something like that. That might make more sense as 32 v3 stalls does feel a bit like overkill at the moment. Then again with the growth rate as fast as it is, it probably won't seem out of line in a year or two so maybe they are just trying to future proof things. Or maybe they just had the opportunity to put in a mega charger and wanted to jump on it before the property changed its mind.
The same guy confirmed that the Ballard supercharger would be v2 and not urban (v2 was a surprising choice, but that's a topic for another conversation) said that Northgate would also be v2 and would be "even faster" than the Ballard one. Obviously that doesn't quite make sense, but in the context of the conversation, I think he was emphasizing that it would not be an urban supercharger when he said it would be v2. Being even faster than the v2 Ballard supercharger would indicate that it's probably going to be v3, which would make more sense. Also some posts earlier in this thread from people who sifted through the permits indicated that Northgate would be v3.
BTW, there's a broader conversation to be had here about what Tesla's plans are with urban vs. v2 vs. v3 going forward. I was under the impression that v2s were no longer being built but then Ballard popped up and what makes it even weirder is that it is the typical kind of place that would have an urban supercharger. A new v2 supercharger hasn't opened in North America since July (Katy, TX and Deptford, NJ) and none of the recent sites under construction appear to be v2. All I can think of is either Tesla just had some v2 equipment that they wanted to use up or maybe the electrical supply on the site couldn't support v3 and they decided to go with v2 instead of urban.
Urban superchargers also seem to be becoming more rare. There are a handful of recently opened urban superchargers and a handful currently under construction. Most, if not all, of them are in California. I have a suspicion that Tesla might be phasing the urban superchargers out. I'm not sure how much they ever really made sense. Not being paired to another vehicle was nice, but other than that I don't really see the advantage of the slower charge rate. Maybe they were just cheaper to implement. Anyways, now that many Electrify America sites are active, it seems kind of bad from a branding standpoint to have "superchargers" that are slower than the EA chargers.
I have a feeling we will see mostly v3 superchargers going forward even in urban areas. And I'm fine with that as long as they can iron out the kinks with the difficulties they've been having with reliability upon opening.
Urban superchargers also seem to be becoming more rare. There are a handful of recently opened urban superchargers and a handful currently under construction. Most, if not all, of them are in California. I have a suspicion that Tesla might be phasing the urban superchargers out. I'm not sure how much they ever really made sense. Not being paired to another vehicle was nice, but other than that I don't really see the advantage of the slower charge rate. Maybe they were just cheaper to implement. Anyways, now that many Electrify America sites are active, it seems kind of bad from a branding standpoint to have "superchargers" that are slower than the EA chargers.
I have a feeling we will see mostly v3 superchargers going forward even in urban areas. And I'm fine with that as long as they can iron out the kinks with the difficulties they've been having with reliability upon opening.
andrewFW
Member
With infrastructure, if you only plan what you need now you'll always be dramatically undersized by the time it's built.
It still looks like 16 stalls based upon the most recent visible permit documents:
"# of EV-ready Spaces Proposed 16"
http://web6.seattle.gov/dpd/edms/GetDocument.aspx?id=5817977
I don't see any other permits that might account for additional non-supercharger stalls either, but I could have missed something.
The latest actual site plans aren't publicly viewable, so maybe the contractor knows something that I can't see. But I'd be surprised if they expanded it to 32 without it being obvious on the public permit documents. It is a two-level layout with 16 stalls on the upper floor, with the lower floor just cabinets, switchgear, and transformer. Maybe the contractor hadn't looked at the plans closely yet and assumed 16 more stalls on the lower floor?
"# of EV-ready Spaces Proposed 16"
http://web6.seattle.gov/dpd/edms/GetDocument.aspx?id=5817977
I don't see any other permits that might account for additional non-supercharger stalls either, but I could have missed something.
The latest actual site plans aren't publicly viewable, so maybe the contractor knows something that I can't see. But I'd be surprised if they expanded it to 32 without it being obvious on the public permit documents. It is a two-level layout with 16 stalls on the upper floor, with the lower floor just cabinets, switchgear, and transformer. Maybe the contractor hadn't looked at the plans closely yet and assumed 16 more stalls on the lower floor?
It was my understanding that Urban chargers were targeted at areas with high apartment/condo living, where SuperCharging was the primary way to charge. By limiting the max rate, it helped prolong battery life. And by removing the pairing, it provided more consistent charging times.
I get that. But now we have a v2 going in in Ballard and a v3 at Northgate. And there hasn’t been a new urban supercharger outside of California in months.
im.thatoneguy
Member
Unfortunately Tesla's firmware though just counts any DC charging as supercharging toward your inevitable supercharge cap. Even chademo at 35kw ticks down your battery's death clock the exact same as 250kw.
I want like an Urban V2. 1 Post, 4 plugs servicing 4 parking spaces. No idle fees. Shared 200kw. If you put in 32 stalls you could handle 128 parking spaces. Then you could actually park and use the mall or movie theater at Northgate without having to sit around in your car like a dip for 30 minutes waiting to finish and move your car.
Are you sure about that? I would think a 250kw charge would zap the battery harder than a 35kw charge. Even L2 charging is DC from the battery's standpoint (after the onboard charger inverts AC to DC) at 6 or 8 kw. So DC alone would seemingly not make all charge rates equally damaging to the battery.
andrewFW
Member
You are correct that the harm to the battery is different, but what im.thatoneguy is saying is that Tesla does not take these differences into account when deciding that your battery has DC charged "enough" and needs to charge slower to protect it.
I agree that we need a mass charger that’s higher power than the most common L2’s right now. I probably would be happy with 15-30kW DC chargers. A two hour movie could get 40% to 80% of a battery recharged. I would like to see at LEAST 32 spaces, but more like 64 and without idle charges, or at least only idle from like 2-6pm during peak shopping/dinner times.
Right now urban is too fast for dinner and/or a movie. Even grocery shopping might be tight if it’s busy and you only go once a week or something. However, they’re too slow to just grab a coffee at and chill for a few minutes. Destinations are fantastic at mall locations and I use them any chance I get. But honestly they’re more of replacing the energy I took to get there and home. Maybe I can get 12 to 14kWh during a movie... that’s great, but that’s not going to help me much if I can’t charge at home or work, that simply is a nice convenience.
The dual charger Model S of back in the day with the high powered wall connector that a promising demo of what “every day” charging could look like...
