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clerks

Member
Jan 18, 2021
267
75
Pittsburgh
Yes. State of charge does affect the 0-60 times. For max speed keep it above 75% charge.
I know we are going a bit off topic here but this disappoints me a bit and I feel a little duped by Tesla. I guess I could have done my homework before buying but the drop off is significant after 75%. I found some sources saying that the drop off on the M3P is steeper than the LR AWD in terms of total loss power (something to the effect of 2X). This makes me wonder exactly what my 10 grand bought me? Is it just a software trick at the expense of having a faster decrease in power relative to SOC?

In the grand scheme of things, the vast majority of my driving will be between 90 and 75 SOC so I guess it's not a huge deal but I hope Tesla finds a way to lessen the impact of the drop off. In the meantime, I guess I will keep charged at 90 to maximize my enjoyment of the vehicle. Having done a few longer drives and gotten my battery down to 60 or so, the drop off is definitely noticeable. You can offset it by leaning into the throttle more but the thrust is definitely reduced. I guess a loss of 50 or so WHP will do that.
 

Black306

Member
Oct 14, 2019
577
831
Sacramento
I know we are going a bit off topic here but this disappoints me a bit and I feel a little duped by Tesla. I guess I could have done my homework before buying but the drop off is significant after 75%. I found some sources saying that the drop off on the M3P is steeper than the LR AWD in terms of total loss power (something to the effect of 2X). This makes me wonder exactly what my 10 grand bought me? Is it just a software trick at the expense of having a faster decrease in power relative to SOC?

In the grand scheme of things, the vast majority of my driving will be between 90 and 75 SOC so I guess it's not a huge deal but I hope Tesla finds a way to lessen the impact of the drop off. In the meantime, I guess I will keep charged at 90 to maximize my enjoyment of the vehicle. Having done a few longer drives and gotten my battery down to 60 or so, the drop off is definitely noticeable. You can offset it by leaning into the throttle more but the thrust is definitely reduced. I guess a loss of 50 or so WHP will do that.
No, I don’t feel duped. It’s not a Tesla thing; it’s common with electrical devises and not just EVs.

Growing up I was heavily into RC cars. More specifically, electric RC cars. It’s pretty obvious that when a car has a freshly charged battery, there is a lot of power. As the battery discharges, performance degrades. Even outside of RC cars, any electrical motor will lose power/performance as voltage drops. When getting a Tesla, I didn’t expect much different.

Difference is that we’re use to ICE cars. Whether a gas tank is full or at 1/4 tank, the engine is making full power.
 
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HenryT

Member
Jan 29, 2020
637
536
Manchester
Difference is that we’re use to ICE cars. Whether a gas tank is full or at 1/4 tank, the engine is making full power.

I don't think that's an entirely fair statement - you are correct that the level of fuel in the tank doesn't affect the power an ICE delivers, but the power delivery varies significantly across the rev range, during gear changes etc. 'Full power' in ICE terms is only really delivered in a typically narrow range when the power and torque curves both peak.
 
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clerks

Member
Jan 18, 2021
267
75
Pittsburgh
No, I don’t feel duped. It’s not a Tesla thing; it’s common with electrical devises and not just EVs.

Growing up I was heavily into RC cars. More specifically, electric RC cars. It’s pretty obvious that when a car has a freshly charged battery, there is a lot of power. As the battery discharges, performance degrades. Even outside of RC cars, any electrical motor will lose power/performance as voltage drops. When getting a Tesla, I didn’t expect much different.

Difference is that we’re use to ICE cars. Whether a gas tank is full or at 1/4 tank, the engine is making full power.
I think what bothers me the most is that this is less of an issue in the LR AWD. So whether or not some drop off is normal, it seems the Performance model suffers more and I’d like to understand why that is. If the LR AWD only suffers a 45hp drop off why is the P twice that? I paid a lot more for the P model.
 
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Black306

Member
Oct 14, 2019
577
831
Sacramento
I don't think that's an entirely fair statement - you are correct that the level of fuel in the tank doesn't affect the power an ICE delivers, but the power delivery varies significantly across the rev range, during gear changes etc. 'Full power' in ICE terms is only really delivered in a typically narrow range when the power and torque curves both peak.

It is a very fair statement. It is not fair to compare horsepower/torque curves between ICE and EV, and neither make the same power/torque throughout the entire rev range. So ‘full power’ is in reference to the relative power between gas tank and battery charge levels. Any given ICE will make the same level of power regardless of fuel tank level. The same cannot be said by any given EV; an EV will not make the same power level from 100% SoC to 10% SoC.
 
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HenryT

Member
Jan 29, 2020
637
536
Manchester
It is a very fair statement. It is not fair to compare horsepower/torque curves between ICE and EV, and neither make the same power/torque throughout the entire rev range. So ‘full power’ is in reference to the relative power between gas tank and battery charge levels. Any given ICE will make the same level of power regardless of fuel tank level. The same cannot be said by any given EV; an EV will not make the same power level from 100% SoC to 10% SoC.

We obviously have a different view of what 'the engine is making full power' means. Interesting wider point you make, nonetheless.
 

Zcd1

Member
Sep 2, 2018
723
841
Walloon Lake, MI / LaQuinta, CA
I know we are going a bit off topic here but this disappoints me a bit and I feel a little duped by Tesla. I guess I could have done my homework before buying but the drop off is significant after 75%. I found some sources saying that the drop off on the M3P is steeper than the LR AWD in terms of total loss power (something to the effect of 2X). This makes me wonder exactly what my 10 grand bought me? Is it just a software trick at the expense of having a faster decrease in power relative to SOC?...I guess a loss of 50 or so WHP will do that.

Or you could have spent $200K on a Porsche Taycan Turbo S and been faced with the same type of limitation.

Despite all of Porsche's claims to the contrary, the Taycan's performance does drop as the SOC drops, as shown in C&D's testing:

2020 Porsche Taycan Turbo S vs. 2020 Tesla Model S Performance

The Taycan's drop off isn't as severe as what used to occur with the Model S P100D, but is similar to what happens with the Model 3 Performance.

(Subsequent to this test, Tesla introduced "Cheetah" mode which allows the S to maintain much more consistent performance:
Tested: 2020 Tesla Model S with Cheetah Mode Delivers Real Gains )

In the end, the Model 3 Performance is much more consistent in delivering its performance than any of its European competitors, since they're all RWD and require a perfect launch to achieve their hero acceleration figures.

I guess if you're roll-racing above about 70 mph or on the Autobahn they'd have an advantage, but not the other 99.4% of the time...
 
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Black306

Member
Oct 14, 2019
577
831
Sacramento
I think what bothers me the most is that this is less of an issue in the LR AWD. So whether or not some drop off is normal, it seems the Performance model suffers more and I’d like to understand why that is. If the LR AWD only suffers a 45hp drop off why is the P twice that? I paid a lot more for the P model.
I get your perspective and believe it's reasonable. To over simplify the answer to your 'why' (cause I know it'll be contested and I don't feel like writing a thesis), it's probably caused by the batteries' ability to meet the higher power demands of a Performance at lower SoCs.

IMO, what makes things worse is the total HP drop, not the percentage drop relative to peak power. To illustrate this point, I used MPP dyno numbers (not actual numbers, just estimated from graphs). I also used an LR RWD cause (a) the power demand is going to be much less and (b) no battery variable; ie batteries are the same. While the % drop difference is only ~4%, a 70HP drop is going to be much more noticeable than a 35HP drop.

Screen Shot 2021-01-26 at 4.35.30 PM.png
 

EvStark

Member
Sep 18, 2016
58
47
Seattle
Yes. State of charge does affect the 0-60 times. For max speed keep it above 75% charge.

He mentions the drop off on the LR AWD was about 45 total HP versus 80 for the Performance

This is less than ideal especially since the recommendation from Tesla is to charge to 80-90%. That being said, I don’t see such a significant drop off on the Raven S. Maybe it’s due to the larger battery
 

clerks

Member
Jan 18, 2021
267
75
Pittsburgh
I know I’ve hijacked this thread but I appreciate the thoughtful responses. I do feel a little duped. As mentioned, you need 90 SOC to achieve this numbers and below 75 you are getting some decent drop off. I really think some disclosure would be reasonable but it’s on me for not doing my homework.

Had I figured this out before I purchased it may have given me pause. I loved the test drive so much I rushed into buying. It was intoxicating. Since the vast majority of my driving will be 30 to 40 miles a day round trip I’ll keep it charged to 90 and go with it. Even at “only” 410 horsepower it’s no slouch.
 

Zcd1

Member
Sep 2, 2018
723
841
Walloon Lake, MI / LaQuinta, CA
...Even at “only” 410 horsepower it’s no slouch.

Without intending to get further in the weeds, the car puts out much more than 410 hp even at the SOC you’re questioning.

At ~60% SOC it still runs ~12.0 in the 1/4 mile, which indicates something like 475 HP.

But 1/4 mile times ignore the true differentiator between the Model 3P and its ICE competitors which is responsiveness and passing performance. Nothing short of a supercar can keep up in any normal street situation.
 

Let's Drive

Member
Apr 1, 2019
60
92
MD
I know I’ve hijacked this thread but I appreciate the thoughtful responses. I do feel a little duped. As mentioned, you need 90 SOC to achieve this numbers and below 75 you are getting some decent drop off. I really think some disclosure would be reasonable but it’s on me for not doing my homework.

Had I figured this out before I purchased it may have given me pause. I loved the test drive so much I rushed into buying. It was intoxicating. Since the vast majority of my driving will be 30 to 40 miles a day round trip I’ll keep it charged to 90 and go with it. Even at “only” 410 horsepower it’s no slouch.
To piggyback what others are saying and to add some perspective, horsepower really doesn't tell the entire story. Keep in mind that we don't suffer the drivetrain losses that ICE vehicles do, so more of our available power is actually put to the ground, efficiently.

As @Zcd1 points out, electric offers a notable improvement in response/passing, but you also have to remember that we don't have to shift every few seconds, which forces ICE motors to climb back through their rev range from lower to (relatively narrow) peak power. This means we spend more time actually accelerating at peak available power, which specifically means we reduce the total time it takes to cover distance.

And that's what you should really be looking at-- how quickly we cover distance vs comparable ICE vehicles, even at lower SoC. Interesting article on it, here.

Enjoy the drive!
 

clerks

Member
Jan 18, 2021
267
75
Pittsburgh
Without intending to get further in the weeds, the car puts out much more than 410 hp even at the SOC you’re questioning.

At ~60% SOC it still runs ~12.0 in the 1/4 mile, which indicates something like 475 HP.

But 1/4 mile times ignore the true differentiator between the Model 3P and its ICE competitors which is responsiveness and passing performance. Nothing short of a supercar can keep up in any normal street situation.
Thanks. The reference to 410 was a worse case scenario. Based on my driving habits, my SOC would almost never be below 50 percent under any circumstances.

btw in terms of actual battery power does the performance offer any actual improvements over the LR AWD or is it all software based.
 

Gasaraki

Active Member
Oct 21, 2019
1,833
1,140
Syracuse, NY
I know we are going a bit off topic here but this disappoints me a bit and I feel a little duped by Tesla. I guess I could have done my homework before buying but the drop off is significant after 75%. I found some sources saying that the drop off on the M3P is steeper than the LR AWD in terms of total loss power (something to the effect of 2X). This makes me wonder exactly what my 10 grand bought me? Is it just a software trick at the expense of having a faster decrease in power relative to SOC?

In the grand scheme of things, the vast majority of my driving will be between 90 and 75 SOC so I guess it's not a huge deal but I hope Tesla finds a way to lessen the impact of the drop off. In the meantime, I guess I will keep charged at 90 to maximize my enjoyment of the vehicle. Having done a few longer drives and gotten my battery down to 60 or so, the drop off is definitely noticeable. You can offset it by leaning into the throttle more but the thrust is definitely reduced. I guess a loss of 50 or so WHP will do that.

It's how batteries work. Take an AA battery. It's voltage will drop as it's state of charge drops.
 

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