New York Times: A Car Dealers Won’t Sell: It’s Electric

[dhanson865]

It's relative. I had an EV that had a 120 mile range. But the airport is 82 miles away.

Nissan Leaf is my primary car. I live in a Metro area. Some distances for me are:

Airport 20 miles
Work 15 miles
Nicest movie theater in town 9 miles
Biggest shopping area in town 9 miles
Closest Movie theaters 3 miles (two in different directions about 3 miles away)
Grocery Store 2 miles
Gym 1 mile

I can't imagine the low population density someone would be living in to have to drive 80 miles to an airport. I suppose that is random distribution, someone has to live further away from the airport.

Average Distance to Nearest Airport

The nationwide data for us statistics junkies:
25.72 mi. = mean distance of a person to his or her nearest major airport
Percent of population within a given distance of a major airport:

Percentile	Distance in Miles
10th percentile	5.14
25th percentile	8.78
50th percentile	17.00
75th percentile	34.27
90th percentile	58.50

apparently you are an outlier statistically. Probably less than 5% of the US population lives 80+ miles away from a major airport.

 

[jerry33]

apparently you are an outlier statistically. Probably less than 5% of the US population lives 80+ miles away from a major airport.

Because you have to make it there and back, on a good day 40 miles to the airport is maximum and that's cutting it very close. On a bad day, it's more like 25 miles.

 

[roblab]

Nissan Leaf is my primary car. I live in a Metro area. Some distances for me are:

Airport 20 miles
Work 15 miles
Nicest movie theater in town 9 miles
Biggest shopping area in town 9 miles
Closest Movie theaters 3 miles (two in different directions about 3 miles away)
Grocery Store 2 miles
Gym 1 mile

I can't imagine the low population density someone would be living in to have to drive 80 miles to an airport. I suppose that is random distribution, someone has to live further away from the airport.
apparently you are an outlier statistically. Probably less than 5% of the US population lives 80+ miles away from a major airport.

This is great! Makes me feel, if not important, at least and outlier. Interestingly, I live 82 miles from all three major airports in our area, sort of like in the center of a huge triangle. That may be why we don't fly much. By the time I get to the airport, check bags, fly, rent a car, etc. etc., I could drive there, no kidding. And free, no hassles, no bomb threats, no tiny seats, no bad air. I love my Tesla. It's my ONLY car.

 

[tga]

I can't imagine the low population density someone would be living in to have to drive 80 miles to an airport. I suppose that is random distribution, someone has to live further away from the airport.

Well, if you live in the north, say your range drops to 60mi in winter. If there's no charging at the airport, you'd need to live within 30 miles to make it home. That means, by your stats, maybe 30% (of northerners, anyway) couldn't rely on a Leaf to make it to the airport and back in winter.

 

[mmccord]

I live in a well populated but suburban area in the north east, outside of nyc. It is 90 miles to Newark airport from my house. My other options include Albany (100 miles), Scranton PA (100 miles), Westchester (80 miles). The only close option is Stewart (newburgh, ny) with about 5 flights a day to nowhere i want to go.

 

[dhanson865]

Well, if you live in the north, say your range drops to 60mi in winter. If there's no charging at the airport, you'd need to live within 30 miles to make it home. That means, by your stats, maybe 30% (of northerners, anyway) couldn't rely on a Leaf to make it to the airport and back in winter.

Check plugshare, this is what it shows at my airport

http://a6b6a4d850da023e34c0-ffd458871468d7801be60d93d5d79b26.r30.cf2.rackcdn.com/54473.jpg

Of course that is in short term parking, you couldn't leave it there while on the trip. You'd have to charge while waiting on the plane or charge before you leave.

besides what is all this "you can't make it home" stuff?

Are you saying there isn't a single J1772 plug anywhere in the miles between the airport and home?

If so you can drive twice as far or infinitely farther at the inconvenience of time spent charging.

Can't do it is a way different than people don't want to do it.

 

[Zythryn]

Check plugshare, this is what it shows at my airport

http://a6b6a4d850da023e34c0-ffd458871468d7801be60d93d5d79b26.r30.cf2.rackcdn.com/54473.jpg

Of course that is in short term parking, you couldn't leave it there while on the trip. You'd have to charge while waiting on the plane or charge before you leave.

besides what is all this "you can't make it home" stuff?

Are you saying there isn't a single J1772 plug anywhere in the miles between the airport and home?

If so you can drive twice as far or infinitely farther at the inconvenience of time spent charging.

Can't do it is a way different than people don't want to do it.

We have chargers at MSP in long term parking.
I really don't see the point of level 2 charging in short term parking.

EVs with 80 mile range works just fine for lots of people.

 

[Nikxice]

I am strongly convinced that a short range commuter electric does more to convince people that electrics are useless than any other advertising. Big Auto knew what they were doing. They pretended to support CARB, they pretended to give people what they wanted, but they lied. They are still lying. Not one manufacturer outside of Tesla is doing anything more than a compliance car.

+2! My personal minimum range threshold for owning ONLY an EV is around 160 miles. That also includes a supercharging type of infrastructure for my infrequent longer trips. The average Joe, who has never owned an EV, probably expects much more range. Even manufacturer proposed EV range upgrades won't result in mass adoption of EVs. For instance, the 200 mile Chevy Bolt, without a fast charging network will do better than the Volt, but will still be a low volume seller. From 'The Right Stuff', dealerships just have to "maintain an even strain". Basically, they don't have to talk much about it, but it's obvious that any scenario without both the chicken and the egg is just going to be followed by a continuation of the status quo. Many EV owners will still visit dealerships and purchase an ICE crutch to park in their driveway. Bring on Model 3!​

 

[dhanson865]

So a leaf supposedly can't do a 80 mile trip.

I bought a 2012 leaf in May 2015 that was degraded to 83% capacity. Call it 75% usable range since when I first got it I didn't know I could drive it way below the battery warnings.

longest trip ever was when I bought the car".

I bought mine in Hickory, NC, drove to Knoxville, TN. Including the diversions off I-40 to charge it was over 225 miles.

https://evtripplanner.com/planner/2-5/?id=cym3 is roughly what I did (I messed up at one point and used Google maps walking directions instead of car directions and took a slightly different route from black mountain to asheville to waynesville)

the zigzag through asheville was me going to a chademo charge point that I couldn't use, then falling back to another that was further out of the way.

16,134 feet elevation gained
16,252 feet elevation dropped
226.2 miles as the trip planner sees it, not counting elevation changes or the actual home address I went to that I'm not advertising here.

So the "it can't handle 80 miles car" made it 225 miles or so that day (with the longest leg being about 85 miles). Yep I was driving and charging from lunchtime to bedtime but as I say there is a big difference between "don't want to do it" and "can't do it"

Even if I wanted to fly out of Nashville or Atlanta. I could pick up my keys hop in my Leaf and drive there right now. It'd take longer than driving my Prius but there is nothing stopping me from driving from major city to major city in my Leaf.

 

[jerry33]

So a leaf supposedly can't do a 80 mile trip.

It can if the weather is nice. Try it on a nasty winter day.

 

[Canuck]

EVs with 80 mile range works just fine for lots of people.

I'd like to meet one in person since the only people I hear this from are people posting on forums. If the Leaf is your primary car, you have to make sacrifices. Period. You can give all the statistics about average commutes, etc. but there's no way you won't be making sacrifices if you don't have a Tesla, ICE or hybrid to fall back on. Everyone I know who owns a Leaf say to people looking to buy one the same thing I say: they are a great second car or kids' car (actually a perfect kids car because it keeps them close to home) BUT, and it's a BIG BUT, if you buy one as your primary car you will be REALLY disappointed. The range is not 80 miles. Not even close. Perhaps under best conditions, without heat, and driving like a slug, you can get 80 miles but I've never seen it, and even if I did get 80, it's not nearly enough.

 

[tga]

So the "it can't handle 80 miles car" made it 225 miles or so that day (with the longest leg being about 85 miles). Yep I was driving and charging from lunchtime to bedtime but as I say there is a big difference between "don't want to do it" and "can't do it"

Let's assume "lunchtime" = noon and "bedtime" = 10pm. So you spent 10 hours to cover 225 miles, averaging 22.5 mi/hour over the trip.

Good luck convincing the general public that that's usable as an only car...

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Getting a bit off track. The point of the thread is that many dealers are sabotaging the sale of EV's. A Nissan Leaf may or may not work for you as a primary/secondary/kids car...but most people will never know, cause Joe Dealer is burying the EV option.

 

[jerry33]

Getting a bit off track. The point of the thread is that many dealers are sabotaging the sale of EV's. A Nissan Leaf may or may not work for you as a primary/secondary/kids car...but most people will never know, cause Joe Dealer is burying the EV option.

Or they really screw you when you purchase one.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Or they really screw you when you purchase one.

That too...

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I wonder if manufacturers could exempt EV's from dealer distribution agreement. If dealers don't want to sell them, no problem. Manufacturer could sell EV's online or through other retailers Costco or similar.

 

[HeavyAaron]

I'd like to meet one in person since the only people I hear this from are people posting on forums. If the Leaf is your primary car, you have to make sacrifices. Period. You can give all the statistics about average commutes, etc. but there's no way you won't be making sacrifices if you don't have a Tesla, ICE or hybrid to fall back on. Everyone I know who owns a Leaf say to people looking to buy one the same thing I say: they are a great second car or kids' car (actually a perfect kids car because it keeps them close to home) BUT, and it's a BIG BUT, if you buy one as your primary car you will be REALLY disappointed. The range is not 80 miles. Not even close. Perhaps under best conditions, without heat, and driving like a slug, you can get 80 miles but I've never seen it, and even if I did get 80, it's not nearly enough.

I suppose I'm on a forum and not in person, but I've been all EV for over 2 years. I have a Ford Focus EV (3 years) and a RAV4 EV (2+ years). I have no idea what you think the problem is. We have no range anxiety at all. Those cars take us further than we ever need to drive in a day. We never even think about range. True, we don't take them on road trips, but for in town, we drive them wherever, whenever we like. For vacations of distance, like anyone else we fly. For vacations within a day's drive we take our motorhome or once or twice a year we rent a car.

It works perfectly fine despite your beliefs to the contrary.

Oh, and yes, we get the rated ranges easily.... we get 83 miles in the Focus and 133 in the RAV with climate control, year round.

 

[dhanson865]

Let's assume "lunchtime" = noon and "bedtime" = 10pm. So you spent 10 hours to cover 225 miles, averaging 22.5 mi/hour over the trip.

Good luck convincing the general public that that's usable as an only car...

Keep in mind that was a once in a lifetime trip doing over 5 times my normal daily range forcing me to L2 charge in addition to Chademo and involved going through construction zones and stopping to eat dinner at a sit down restaurant.

Just because you can show a worst case scenario doesn't make this car unworkable as a daily driver.

I literally plug it in when I get home and unplug it when I go to leave. It charges for about 2 hours even though it's plugged in for 12 hours.

If I had a Tesla Model S I wouldn't spend any less time charging or any less time driving or have any other sort of advantage driving to work and back that is related to the battery pack and charger.

If you don't see the convenience of the Leaf as being equal to the Model S in this use case you are just as delusional as the guys who won't buy a Model S because you can't fill it up with gas.

This isn't a matter of Luxury or Safety. If you live close enough that you can drive X miles per day and the Leaf has range > X then you can drive a Leaf just as easily as any other EV whose range is > X.

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I suppose I'm on a forum and not in person, but I've been all EV for over 2 years. I have a Ford Focus EV (3 years) and a RAV4 EV (2+ years). I have no idea what you think the problem is. We have no range anxiety at all. Those cars take us further than we ever need to drive in a day. We never even think about range. True, we don't take them on road trips, but for in town, we drive them wherever, whenever we like. For vacations of distance, like anyone else we fly. For vacations within a day's drive we take our motorhome or once or twice a year we rent a car.

It works perfectly fine despite your beliefs to the contrary.

Oh, and yes, we get the rated ranges easily.... we get 83 miles in the Focus and 133 in the RAV with climate control, year round.

The difference is you are in the Desert Southwest, I'm in the Rainy Southeast, and he is in Canada.

We live far enough south to be able to drive year round with little range penalty.

Heck I drove at 30F just a few nights ago and got 3.7 miles/kWh instead of the 4.5 I'd expect at 60F. Apparently the guys way up north see more of a drop off.

 

[Canuck]

The difference is you are in the Desert Southwest, I'm in the Rainy Southeast, and he is in Canada.

That's true. It's much worse in the winter. But that's not the only issue.

I have no idea what you think the problem is.

Okay, for the sake of argument, let's say I can get the full 80 miles. Still no good. Why? Here's just three of many sacrifices I must make:

I want to come home from work and go night skiing at the local hill (Grouse Mountain) which is 50 miles one way. That's out. Sacrifice 1 - no longer a skier.

I have three daughters and one of the reasons we got the Leaf was so that my wife and I stopped being the taxi cab driver for practices. But they have dance and cheer competitions throughout the lower mainland (which is Vancouver and the surrounding areas) and I couldn't get them to the competitions or back since most are at least 40 miles one way since they compete with neighboring towns/suburbs (sacrifice #2 - no competitions).

I couldn't go fishing on the Fraser River, of if I could since it just might make it there and back, I usually leave on a Sat/Sun early and when I get home at around 6:00 pm my wife wants me to take her downtown to dinner so that would be out (Sacrifice #3 - fishing or wife... hmmm?).

So, yes, if you stay close home, and don't go out much, I guess a low range EV works. But not for me and for the vast majority of people who live a busy and active lifestyle with activities more than 40 miles from home one way. And even if they are less than 40 miles, you better not have worked that day, or want to do something later on after the activity. This is not about vacations or road trips. This is about everyday life. And pretty much everyone else I know is like me -- which is why I don't recommend the Leaf as the primary vehicle.

It works perfectly fine despite your beliefs to the contrary.

This isn't about beliefs. I also own a Leaf. This is about fact. I'm happy it works for you but you're the exception and not the rule.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I wonder if manufacturers could exempt EV's from dealer distribution agreement. If dealers don't want to sell them, no problem. Manufacturer could sell EV's online or through other retailers Costco or similar.

Pat, Pat on my back...someone make me a CEO already:

While no one at Audi was saying that the automaker is going to open up its own EV stores, like Tesla has, but two Audi of America executives were certainly warm to a different style of how an automaker can encourage EV sales.

Audi looking for Tesla-style, non-traditional way to sell EVs

 

[HeavyAaron]

I'm happy it works for you but you're the exception and not the rule.

I have no idea what percentage of people it would work for so I do not know if I'm an exception or a rule. But you specifically asked for just ONE person it worked for. You seem to be trying to move the goal posts from saying it can't work for anyone to it can't work for most people.

You were responding to an assertion that "EVs with 80 mile range works just fine for lots of people." You stated "I'd like to meet one in person".

I am ONE such person. There's nothing particularly unique about me that I'm aware, but you were effectively denying my existence.

I don't know if an all ~80 mile range EV ownership would work for most people. It might. I'd consider that an open question, certainly not an open and shut one.