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Newbie needs help with deciding on which model

WannabeOwner

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2015
5,758
2,896
Suffolk, UK
P90DL would be great of course :smile: I am sure I can get a huge buzz out of dropping the clutch (whatever the EV term for that?!) at the lights.

I read that for max acceleration you need high levels of charge, and that 90% charge, or less, is better for normal charge and to only charge to 100% when needed. So that would be for a long journey ... and on those occasions I won't be wasting power seeing off a boy-racer at the lights. So after the novelty has worn off (would it ever wear off?!) I'm not sure I want Performance option. But you might want to talk me into it?

If I drive at a steady 70MPH (or 50MPH, whatever) on the highway is there any significant difference in range between the various versions of same-KWh batteries? Here in UK I feel I need to put my wish for thrilling speed on one side and err on the side of max range, for convenience. In the states making long journeys, and stopping along the way, is routine. Over here a long day for me would be 150 miles each way in a day and on such a journey I would just want to get there, and back, as quickly as possible. The journey time will be limited by traffic, I will be held up an unpredictable length of time, and I won't want an additional 20 minute stop to charge, so max range is probably going to suit me best (in terms of minimal lifestyle change in moving from ICE to EV). That said, I can persuade myself that leaving home each journey with a full "tank" and not having to stop for 5 minutes each week for petrol is the same as stopping once a month for 20 minutes Supercharge, and I may well take the opportunity to food/etc shop nearby a supercharger. Its a lifestyle change that is difficult to judge without experiencing it.

So I am thinking max range, rather than max acceleration.

But ... for $10,000 more I could have a performance car the likes of which I have never been able to afford before. The alternative is to spend (an additional!!) $200,000 on a supercar, which would be nuts compared to an extra $10K on my day-to-day car.

I've owned sports cars - couple of Lotuses a long time back, and an Audi RS4 before we consciously decided that we didn't want our grandchildren telling us "You knew there was a problem and did nothing about it" so we moved to increasingly Eco cars 8-ish years ago - and have now been shafted by VW (we have 2x VW Blue Motions and 1x Seat people carrier which also has a recall because of shared VW components). I also have a Lotus-7 kit car with V8, it weighs half-a-ton, and 0-60 of 3s or thereabout and plenty of noise - but its not very practical! and usually does less than 1,000 miles a year. So, yeah, I am completely sat on the fence about performance. Of course the answer would be both a 90D and P90DL and my wife & I can swap on an as-needed basis :smile: however I don't see the discussion going well with Management on that plan! - unless VW say "We're very sorry, here's a generous diminished-value offer and we'll pay the early-exit penalty on your finance" particularly in the knowledge that we are never buying from VW, or related company, ever again in my lifetime.

Sorry, I'm on a rant, but I'd appreciate help with the cost-benefit-enjoyment choice of 90, 90D, P90D or P90DL.

We used to have 4WD for winter but have found, on recent vehicles, that winter tyres have meant we are fine with 2WD. Of course 4WD/AWD would be better, and with-what-we-know-now we would have winter tyres on any/every vehicle anyway. (My UK winter is frosty mornings and some ice, occasionally some snow but rarely deep / lingering for more than a week; we get deep/lingering snow once a decade or less). I'm happy to decide on AWD but the Performance/Ludicrous option is harder to decide. I suppose it hinges on whether at a steady 70MPG there is no/much range difference between Normal, P and PL models?

Any other advice you may have to help me reach a decision would be appreciated. I love data, even if conflicting, when trying to reach a decision

Thanks :smile:
 

tomas

Out of warranty...
Oct 22, 2012
4,279
3,880
Santa Barbara/New York
See what a test drive tells you. I have P85. My understanding is 85d currently performs about the same. Personally, I find it amazing when I punch the accelerator, but I do that more and more rarely after 3 years. Unless you are a real speed junkie, you'll still get plenty of kicks from 85d. If you are a speed junkie, or want more high end lower as well as off the line, go 90dl. I don't see point of stopping at 90D if you are after max performance.
 

GSP

Member
Dec 28, 2007
2,574
802
Performance of the Max range configuration, 90D with 19" tyres, is quite good. It is about the same as the "old"P85 and many top performance sedans. Response to "throttle" inputs is also much quicker with an EV. If you get the 90D it will be impressive. Even more so after you casually mention "and this isn't even the performance version, the P90D and P90DL are even quicker!"

This is a very personal decision, and I like the 90D myself. I'd rather not spend the extra money since the 90D performance is more than adequate for me. Others will think "you only live once, the price difference is not all that much, and I would rather have the top version." To each their own; the world is richer to have a variety of people and cars.

GSP

PS. 19" all seasons should work great in your climate. This provides max range and tire life, and no hassle to switch tires in the fall and spring. That would be my choice. However, the 21" wheels do look awesome.
 

WannabeOwner

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2015
5,758
2,896
Suffolk, UK
I don't see point of stopping at 90D if you are after max performance.

Good point. Its 8 years since we ditched performance cars for Eco and I've probably forgotten whether I would still enjoy that, or if that age has passed. My wife was more reluctant to move away from Performance, at the time, so she might be more pleased ... but the RS4 we had was 4.7s 0-60, and the Lotus I had back in the 80's was circa 5s. As a kid 5-seconds was always my barometer for whether a car was quick, or not - so I guess "circa 5s" ought to be good enough for me now :) The "Hooligan" I have is a lot faster, but its a very different beast. Thrills with that come from hanging the tail out whenever turning at a stop junction and seeing how far down the straight I can get before needing to straighten up! although its short-straight overtake is handy on country roads where the opportunities are fewer, and shorter, than the main roads.

MS test drive scheduled soon, no doubt that will change my mind ... ludicrously <Sorry about that ...>

If you get the 90D it will be impressive. Even more so after you casually mention "and this isn't even the performance version, the P90D and P90DL are even quicker!"

I definitely nicking that quote :)

19" all seasons should work great in your climate. This provides max range and tire life, and no hassle to switch tires in the fall and spring. That would be my choice. However, the 21" wheels do look awesome.

My mind, subject to any opinions folk may want to share, was made up on the 19", mostly for quietness. We have always had separate rims for Summer / Winter as it makes it easy to change & store the other-season tires (so presumably I could have 19" Winter and 21" Summer, or is there a technical CONFIG change to the car when swapping diameter?) I don't normally chuck cars around corners, any more, and I suspect that the MS is nimble enough even on 19" rubber. I do still "press on" when the need arises, and that is mostly on country roads, but for me "press on" is, now, more usually the ability to overtake on a short straight rather than having the ability to get around a blind corner 10MPH faster than is wise; that was the stuff of my youth.

Hmmm ... on that basis straight line speed, for a safe country-road overtake on a short straight, may be more important than I had considered. On Summer days, when I am out in my Hooligan, I have that ability and its both a joy, and shaves considerable time off my journey, which in turn means less stress.
 

tstafford

Active Member
Jul 4, 2015
1,039
245
Nashville, TN
All things being equal if I had it to do again I'd likely get an 85D or 90D. Probably the 85D because I only use the Tesla for local driving. The power is great but I don't think the delta b/w the 85D and P85D is really worth it. I mostly find myself using AP Lanekeeping and enjoying the relaxation of driving in a smooth, comfortable, quiet car. The acceleration is something I use a few times a week and I doubt I miss it enough to justify the price.

Note - It's easy for me to say this of course since I have the P85D!
 

WannabeOwner

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2015
5,758
2,896
Suffolk, UK
Thanks. Acceleration aside can anyone confirm whether at a constant speed (e.g. 70 mph on straight highway) there is any different in Watts/mile - i.e. battery range? I reckon that 80% of our driving will be on highway, and probably 60-80% of that will be limited by traffic - e.g. in rush hour. If 85, 85D, P85D, P85DL would all give me the same miles-per-charge in those situations I seem no reason not to have the P85DL (or P90DL), but if higher performance models have less range then I reckon I will choose the model with maximum range.
 
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Max*

Charging
Apr 8, 2015
6,670
3,719
NoVa
Thanks. Acceleration aside can anyone confirm whether at a constant speed (e.g. 70 mph on straight highway) there is any different in Watts/mile - i.e. battery range? I reckon that 80% of our driving will be on highway, and probably 60-80% of that will be limited by traffic - e.g. in rush hour. If 85, 85D, P85D would all give me the same miles-per-charge in those situations I seem no reason not to save the P85D (or P90D), but if P85D has less range then I reckon I will choose maximum range.

Think of it this way, the P85D battery is the same as the 85D, but they added a larger motor to the rear, which adds more weight. So it would have to have less range.

If range is king, then it's 85D or 90D.

EPA estimates
85 265miles (the single motor isn't as efficient as the dual motors)
85D 270miles
P85D 253miles
 

maximus16

Member
Nov 5, 2015
75
29
Houston, TX
I am in the same boat, I have 3 days to decide 85D or 90D and it is hard! I drive 50 miles one way to work but have a supercharger just 10 mins from my home that I pass to go to work. So technically a 70D would do but I see the 85D has a better 0-60 than the 70D. So are there any other advantages besides range?
 

Max*

Charging
Apr 8, 2015
6,670
3,719
NoVa
I am in the same boat, I have 3 days to decide 85D or 90D and it is hard! I drive 50 miles one way to work but have a supercharger just 10 mins from my home that I pass to go to work. So technically a 70D would do but I see the 85D has a better 0-60 than the 70D. So are there any other advantages besides range?

Range, acceleration and supercharging times (the 85kw battery will supercharge faster than the 70kwh battery. There is a table somewhere, but it's basically about a 20minute increase on a 500mile roadtrip due to supercharging times of the larger battery).

Also take into account battery degradation due to age and cold weather. Will the 70D give you enough range when it's 5 years old and it's cold outside?

That being said I have a 70D, I feel it's plenty fast, I've taken a lot of roadtrips, and in my neck of the woods, the superchargers are close enough that the 70D is more than enough.

You can also get $1k off by using someone's referal code between now and December (mine is in my sig).
 

xborg

Member
Oct 21, 2015
356
383
London
I think that if money is not a problem, P90DL is the best choice. Other than that I think 85D has the best performance/price ratio.
 

Mikes90D

Member
Nov 5, 2015
8
3
La Grange, IL
I went with the 90D for maximum range. Our car will be used 98% of the time around town, but the +5 and the D get us just a little more range for those times we'll take it on the road.

The +$30K for the P and the L is more than I've spent for any car, so while I could have afforded it, it wasn't something I'd do without a really good reason. And since it cuts range, that would be defeating the purpose for capability I'd use rarely.

I did our test drive in the P85D in Insane Mode. That's far more car than I want in the garage when my kids get to driving age.
 

lucy

bluehair
Jul 5, 2015
320
13
Des Moines, IA
I went from an Audi RS4 to a Model S 90D, have had the MS for less than a week. I am finding that with the instant torque of the MS it seems "sportier" despite it's bigger size. For normal driving it is more than fast enough, I am going 90 mph in an instant. I got the 90D vs the 85D because there are very few superchargers in my area of the US, I felt that the 90D If you have access to home charging and do not go on long trips you might be able to get by with the smaller battery pack and use the money for the speed upgrade instead if you want to race!
 

roblab

Active Member
Jul 15, 2008
3,555
2,619
Angwin (Napa Valley) CA
I went from an Audi RS4 to a Model S 90D, have had the MS for less than a week. I am finding that with the instant torque of the MS it seems "sportier" despite it's bigger size. For normal driving it is more than fast enough, I am going 90 mph in an instant. I got the 90D vs the 85D because there are very few superchargers in my area of the US, I felt that the 90D If you have access to home charging and do not go on long trips you might be able to get by with the smaller battery pack and use the money for the speed upgrade instead if you want to race!

I got the 90D for range. Supposedly. But I race anyone in town (Napa Valley has lots of Maseratis and Porsches) and laugh at the Harleys I leave behind at the lights. The 90D can move! Not very many family sedans that can get to 60 in 4.2. And since people don't know if it's a P or not, they don't know if I can get to 60 in less than 3. Ha! What a kick.

So far, no tickets, though I have accidentally gotten up past 110 while passing... which didn't take much time.
 

Cattledog

Active Member
Feb 9, 2012
2,194
3,069
San Antonio, TX
The absolute best value, sweet spot for performance, range, price, etc. is the 90D. Want more sport, P90DL. More economy, 70 or 70D. You almost can't go wrong. But if I were re-upping today, it would be a 90D. Good luck!
 

lencap

Member
May 27, 2013
150
480
Raleigh, NC
From reading your post it seems as if the increased price for the "ludicrous" mode car isn't an obstacle. You also allude to "sub 5 second" cars as hitting a certain sweet spot for you. You also state that you're a grandparent (me too) and that you want to be eco friendly. Putting all of that together it seems as if a fully loaded 90D with all the toys will meet every requirement you have - or may have. For an incremental $10-20K, not insignificant but not excessive, you have every possibility covered. So my comment is - why not get a loaded 90D, scratch all of your itches and be ready for anything you want to do? Worst case? You overspent by $10-20K from a "stripper" version of ludicrous mode fun. Resale risk is maybe half of that? So for $10K, at most, you get everything you want? Seems like an economically justified rationalization for getting the car you really want. Enjoy.
 

WannabeOwner

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2015
5,758
2,896
Suffolk, UK
From reading your post it seems as if the increased price for the "ludicrous" mode car isn't an obstacle. You also allude to "sub 5 second" cars as hitting a certain sweet spot for you. You also state that you're a grandparent (me too) and that you want to be eco friendly. Putting all of that together it seems as if a fully loaded 90D with all the toys will meet every requirement you have - or may have. For an incremental $10-20K, not insignificant but not excessive, you have every possibility covered. So my comment is - why not get a loaded 90D, scratch all of your itches and be ready for anything you want to do? Worst case? You overspent by $10-20K from a "stripper" version of ludicrous mode fun. Resale risk is maybe half of that? So for $10K, at most, you get everything you want? Seems like an economically justified rationalization for getting the car you really want. Enjoy.

Spot on, thanks. Not actually grandparent yet, might not be long though :), but Our grandchildren will say "You knew there was a problem and did nothing" is a frequent quote of mine. I get invited to a lot less dinner parties now :biggrin: because I give my friends, who have spare cash, a very hard time for not doing more to be Eco. If the privileged few don't make an effort why should anyone else? Those that sit-and-wait for the maximum subsidy, and then wade in in the most inefficient/wasteful, subsidy-maximising way, get my special attention! That said, I'm all for subsidy to help make the move from 150-year-old, well refined, entrenched ICE cars to New Tech. I don't care that power stations may, right now, be burning polluting coal - its Chicken and Egg. I, personally, don't care if government sponsors both Battery and Hydrogen (and anything else). I can sit here and have a strongly help view on one-or-other, but I don't actually know and I think that only real-world-experience, and market forces maybe, will actually enable the most informed decisions to be taken (and even then Politics will no doubt get in the way). So best-foot-forwards and governments need to subsidise the early adoption process.

Think of it this way, the P85D battery is the same as the 85D, but they added a larger motor to the rear, which adds more weight. So it would have to have less range.

If range is king, then it's 85D or 90D.

EPA estimates
85 265miles (the single motor isn't as efficient as the dual motors)
85D 270miles
P85D 253miles

Thanks. I have presumed, but maybe wrongly?, that EPA figures and the like include acceleration / hill climb / etc. duty-cycles? What I am after is steady speed usage; the way I see it is that on a trip when I have range-anxiety I could drive at 28MPH or whatever is max efficiency, but in reality that's not my concern except in emergency, as I hopefully will have planned my trip better! So the scenario I perceive is that on a journey with "some range anxiety" I will cruise the highway at a steady, cruise control, speed. In the UK that is likely to normally be mid-70s, but if I know I have a range issue perhaps 60MPH, maybe even 50MPH. But critical, to my purchasing decision, is what the range difference (i.e. power consumption) is between the various models when driving in that mode. I figure that a V12 petrol engine is always chucking fuel into the cylinders using a bucket, compared to a frugal little 1600CC engine, so the hypermileing difference between the two is huge. But with an EV I think that the power usage is different - high performance doesn't have to use lots of energy for a moderate speed in an EV. It can turn off motors easily, or use TECH to regen, hypermile, whatever. So apart from any extra weight (thanks for that which I hadn't thought of, although I can't find any figures for curb weight for each individual model ...), which would clearly make a difference, I have still not managed to find any figures for WHr/km power usage on flat highway for each different Tesla model at a steady speed of 50MPH, 60MPH, 70MPH and 80MPH. Perhaps I should start a thread to ask existing owners to do a constant-speed test for me? Presumably dashboard shows WHr/km power consumption so would be an easy experiment?

you have a freaking Seven! A gosh darn Seven!

Hehehe ... well in that case I can't resist posting my Seven-porn :)

attachment.php?attachmentid=100257&stc=1.jpg


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3.5 V8 bored out to 3.9-ish, high performance heads, limited slip Quaif diff etc., about 300BHP and weighing half-a-ton. Great fun :)

- - - Updated - - -

EDIT: Sorry, not mastered the image upload very well there.
 

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Max*

Charging
Apr 8, 2015
6,670
3,719
NoVa
Thanks. I have presumed, but maybe wrongly?, that EPA figures and the like include acceleration / hill climb / etc. duty-cycles? What I am after is steady speed usage; the way I see it is that on a trip when I have range-anxiety I could drive at 28MPH or whatever is max efficiency, but in reality that's not my concern except in emergency, as I hopefully will have planned my trip better! So the scenario I perceive is that on a journey with "some range anxiety" I will cruise the highway at a steady, cruise control, speed. In the UK that is likely to normally be mid-70s, but if I know I have a range issue perhaps 60MPH, maybe even 50MPH. But critical, to my purchasing decision, is what the range difference (i.e. power consumption) is between the various models when driving in that mode. I figure that a V12 petrol engine is always chucking fuel into the cylinders using a bucket, compared to a frugal little 1600CC engine, so the hypermileing difference between the two is huge. But with an EV I think that the power usage is different - high performance doesn't have to use lots of energy for a moderate speed in an EV. It can turn off motors easily, or use TECH to regen, hypermile, whatever. So apart from any extra weight (thanks for that which I hadn't thought of, although I can't find any figures for curb weight for each individual model ...), which would clearly make a difference, I have still not managed to find any figures for WHr/km power usage on flat highway for each different Tesla model at a steady speed of 50MPH, 60MPH, 70MPH and 80MPH. Perhaps I should start a thread to ask existing owners to do a constant-speed test for me? Presumably dashboard shows WHr/km power consumption so would be an easy experiment?

Here ya go: Model S | Tesla Motors
Scroll down to "Range per car", you can play with speed, temp, battery size, wheel size, etc.

FWIW I have a 70D, and driving about 75mph gets me about 220miles on a warm day. So the calculator is a little conservative, but it'll give you a pretty good estimate.
 

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