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I'd love a 150kwh battery, the model s can get along with less but man the x with big wheels in cold climates is a legit 150 miles cuv. No way that anyone is getting over 200 miles in the winter in a model x, hopefully the new 2170 is why they're doing away with free supercharging, maybe the new battery is so big they don't want people abusing it worse than they already do. (Wishful thinking:)
 
Hear me out now.

Apart from being cheaper to produce (/kWh) the new 2170 cells will allow for more capaciy in a given pack size. 40% more than the 2012 85kWh pack, according to JB Straubel. And that may well be without the extra utilization of 5mm head space through the longer cells. So, close to 50%. 125kWh-130kWh seems to very much be within the realm of possibility.
Already it seems the latest (last) 18650 pack upgrade to 100kWh seems to "pack" more capacity than the increase from 85 and 90 would suggest. No more overstated battery capacities for Tesla? That would be good.

Now there have been quotes by Elon that 100kWh would be the limit. But would that be referring to 18650's to keep comeptitors none the wiser? Surely the way Tesla seems to keep Model S and X high priced (really high margin, especially the long range specs), it would be a good thing to demolish the competition with a 125kWh car? Much harder for the competition to match that for range. Say if Mercedes were to offer a similar sized car, and not needlessly chique to at least sell more than a few, their higher cost/kWh not having theirr own gigafactory, would make it difficult or impossible to compete at the same price level without making a loss, while Tesla are actually at a high margin. Tesla COULD easily, if they pleased, offer the first 125kWh pack for the current 100kWh price, and not lose a dollar of margin, even be up on the change.

What advantage could limiting themselves to 100kWh hold?
In case of slow production, more cars to be build, no battery delays.
Perhaps having ample space around the cells for optimal cooling? Not going done to, say, 14 modules in stead of 16, but having 16 sub-maximum capacity modules?
Or, would they vastly under-claim the capacity so that charging takes places within very big safety margins to ensure the longuevity to the pack? They could they make extra range available at a supercharger (proper balancing) or when out of juice (bad weather, or stupid driver) for a nominal fee. Imagine you mess up and end up stranding your S100(2170). It would have 10kWh of extra capacity left to get you to a charger, in a valet/limping mode of sorts to ensure it works out and damages the battery to a minimum.
And if one would be facing a long SuC leap, or driving in high-consumption conditions (towing in case of X until S gets it), a maximum number of times per year a one-time upgrade could be allowed to charge to 15kWh extra. The 10kWh at the bottom being a separate "charge" possibly. Or making it a 125kWh for one, or for a day.

If supercharging becomes possible only to 80-90% of a nominal charge level to ensure people don't waste time occupying stalls (until cars can auto-park themselves after a snake disconnect), such a one-time payment could unlock maximum range, and SuC to that level, and well beyond.

All nice theory, but I doubt Tesla would stick 25% more cells in there then they really need. A 60(75) style arrangement seems more logical. 100(125) would be proportionate to that actually.

What motive would Tesla have to NOT offer a 430-440 mile EPA range Model S when technically and financially, they can? It's their agenda to prove to the world that BEV's don't limit the driver, right? And why not make the most out of the giga investment to make your own cells, let alone market leading ones, if you're not going to even explore their advantages beyond margin optimization?

Will 90 and 100 owners be pissed when the 125 is introduced, even at the old price level? Yes, but they could see it coming for years. As Tesla improves their Fremont throughput, not only for Model 3 fus also S&X, why not make the high margin cars as attractive as possible? Better sell an S125 than an extra Powerpack, surely? See how cheap Powerwalls are already with 18650 cells. 14kWh for $5500 including a converter. They can make a megarange BEV that demolished te competition 5-10 years into the future. Why wouldn't they?

Discuss!
Aren't the 2170's 35% bigger than the 1860's? So if you replaced the S90 pack w/2170s wouldn't the difference be much less than a 40-50% increase?
 
Aren't the 2170's 35% bigger than the 1860's? So if you replaced the S90 pack w/2170s wouldn't the difference be much less than a 40-50% increase?

The increase Tesla is talking about is not per cell, but per volume. Of course a cell that is 30$ larger has 30% more capacity, but that's not what Tesla means when they say their new cells are better :)
 
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Thanks for the kind replies.

By volume (less aluminum, more juice), I've heard 10% as a rough density improvement
Then, there is the utilized head space ((70/65)-1)*100% = 7.7%
The baseline is 100kWh with 18650's today.
This makes for 118kWh without changing any chemistry. And with some intent, Model 3 might already take 100kWh or really close to it.

And for chemistry, it sure seems like the 85->90 upgrade has been the only one in 4 years now, next year 5. A change such as was predicted on average annualy. A bigger upgrade is overdue, and it's said 2170 will be the introduction for it, although they might go with what they know at first.
Is a 10% chemistry update too much to ask for after the 85->90 upgrade only?

If JB said 85kWh+30% for Model 3 energy density, could the added 65->70mm cell height of +7.7% (by floor space utilized) be on top of that? It would seem logical.

At one point Tesla will need to start sharing its cell cost saving with customers. There will soonn be competitors on the market, and so they want to be the company where you can only get $100k cars, or wait 2-3 years for a cheaper one? Yes, they could and should reduce price on the 60 of course, the moment they get cheaper 2170 cells.
Is there a source for the ramping up of 2170 production? If they are making 500,000 cars in 2018, let's 150K S&X 80kWh average and 350K 70kWh average, that's a lot of cells already. And there's the Tesla Wall and Powerpack, plus roofs that will want walls to support them.
I did read that initially some products would reamin on imported 18650's for a while, but I have difficulty seeing how this could be allowed to be. 2170 ramp up is of such vital cost impact... If you're going to make a Gigafactory for cells...
 
Lots of today's vehicles can go 400 miles on a tankful. Why is this, given that fuel stops abound?

--

I imagine it has something to do with how the difference between an 8 and 16 gallon tank is maybe $12.

With a re-imagined transportation system (EVs), range is a lot less important after a certain point due to cost. I doubt there would be much demand for a 500 mile range if it costs another $10k.
 
The increase Tesla is talking about is not per cell, but per volume. Of course a cell that is 30$ larger has 30% more capacity, but that's not what Tesla means when they say their new cells are better :)
Let's not forget the 2170 is taller and will be place upright like the 18650, so the pack volume is actually "increased" for a given floor surface area used. Really, it's filling up previously wasted volume. The new cooling design helps unlock this apparently, freeing up the extra head space.
 
I believe Tesla is going to eliminate that immediate change notice stuff. Or at least I hope so.

I will take that bet Garlan. They did it twice in the last week without notification so you will see that is a mistaken assumption. We all know how you feel about it but we also all know the reason it's done the way it is. Their ONLY motivation to announce changes ahead of time is to motivate people to pull the trigger. The supercharging program announcement and model S 60 price increase are exactly that. The things that matter to people with the mindset you have (AP2.0, 100 battery, etc.) are going to be on a "need to know" basis and Tesla's viewpoint is we don't need to know if it will cause people to delay a purchase.
 
Someone break it down for us dummies.

Current 100 batteries will be upgraded to new version? And that one will cool more efficiently?

No, this is a hypothetical discussion. If and when they start using the new cell format in these batteries it's very unlikely they will offer an upgrade for owners of cars with the old format cells. Not impossible. Just unlikely or unlikely to be a reasonable price if they do.
 
No, this is a hypothetical discussion. If and when they start using the new cell format in these batteries it's very unlikely they will offer an upgrade for owners of cars with the old format cells. Not impossible. Just unlikely or unlikely to be a reasonable price if they do.


I meant more Tesla lineup will be upgraded. If we want to order a 100 battery should we wait? What are the benefits?
 
I meant more Tesla lineup will be upgraded. If we want to order a 100 battery should we wait? What are the benefits?

It's all speculative. We can assume they will change over to the 2170 cell in the next year or so. Whether they will upgrade the capacity at that time we don't know and we can assume if they do upgrade the capacity they will also charge more for it. These are assumptions but they are also educated guesses.
 
I will take that bet Garlan. They did it twice in the last week without notification so you will see that is a mistaken assumption. We all know how you feel about it but we also all know the reason it's done the way it is. Their ONLY motivation to announce changes ahead of time is to motivate people to pull the trigger. The supercharging program announcement and model S 60 price increase are exactly that. The things that matter to people with the mindset you have (AP2.0, 100 battery, etc.) are going to be on a "need to know" basis and Tesla's viewpoint is we don't need to know if it will cause people to delay a purchase.
What have they done in the last week without notification? Without giving people the time to make a decision? what has been instant?


The price of the MS is coming in 2-3 weeks.
SC charging isn't changing for 6 weeks.
 
They decided to bundle the interior options for the Model X (removing some options and forcing you to take certain trim combos instead of picking your wood/headliner/seat combo as has always been the case) and on the model S they added ventilation to them premium white seats with preminum upgrades (before you only got ventilation if you ordered black or tan) and added grey to the color choices on the next gen seats if my memory is correct. So really 3 changes.
 
They decided to bundle the interior options for the Model X (removing some options and forcing you to take certain trim combos instead of picking your wood/headliner/seat combo as has always been the case) and on the model S they added ventilation to them premium white seats with preminum upgrades (before you only got ventilation if you ordered black or tan) and added grey to the color choices on the next gen seats if my memory is correct. So really 3 changes.
Yeah, but those aren't really decisions that we have been talking about. I don't believe that either of those kinds or things would deter anyone from or encourage anyone to buy a Tesla. Those changes weren't even worthy of an announcement.

I'm talking about announcement worthy changes.
 
Yeah, but those aren't really decisions that we have been talking about. I don't believe that either of those kinds or things would deter anyone from or encourage anyone to buy a Tesla. Those changes weren't even worthy of an announcement.

I'm talking about announcement worthy changes.
Oh, I knew you would say that. The problem is things are critically important to you might be irrelevant to many others and these things that you don't find important might be huge to other buyers. You can't look at things as if only your viewpoint is relevant.
 
Oh, I knew you would say that. The problem is things are critically important to you might be irrelevant to many others and these things that you don't find important might be huge to other buyers. You can't look at things as if only your viewpoint is relevant.
I'm going with Tesla's need to announce worthy process. Not mine.

In my opinion they are making public scheduled announcements about everything that I have deemed important. AND they are not announcing anything that I have considered to be non-announcement worthy.


Teslas opinion and my opinion about what to announce are running hand in hand so far..... I am certainly not the only one running 100% with Tesla on this kind of stuff. Its pretty simple.
 
I'm going with Tesla's need to announce worthy process. Not mine.

In my opinion they are making public scheduled announcements about everything that I have deemed important. AND they are not announcing anything that I have considered to be non-announcement worthy.


Teslas opinion and my opinion about what to announce are running hand in hand so far..... I am certainly not the only one running 100% with Tesla on this kind of stuff. Its pretty simple.

So you are saying unless Tesla schedules a event or press conference then it's not important enough to make anyone unhappy that they missed out on something?
 
I think there are a few reasons for Elon saying 100kWh is likely all that's needed:

1. Tesla made no chemistry improvements in their 90-100kWh pack increase and repeated that chemistry improvements would happen with the 2170 pack.

2. For reference -- The Gen 2 2170 Powerwall doubled energy density over its Gen 1 18650 counterpart, added an inverter, and is only 23% heavier. Think about that for a second. Also note that the Gen 2 Powerpack doubled density at the same physical unit size.

3. As @Troy mentioned, chemistry improvements will lower weight, which will improve range. A 2170 100kWh pack will likely achieve greater than 350 miles of range.

4. Finally, I think Elon/Tesla view the need for more than 350 miles as a corner case. One of the main reasons for this I believe are the range gains vs charging requirements. The main advantage in a 500 mile battery is not in plain long distance travel, but in towing something long distances.
 
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So you are saying unless Tesla schedules a event or press conference then it's not important enough to make anyone unhappy that they missed out on something?
Nope. I chose my words carefully and I've made them really simple so that there is no interpretation necessary.

Tesla has been announcing everything perfectly since AP2.0 in my opinion. They are announcing all things that are vitally important to their customers and simply changing things that aren't vitally important to its customers.

The heartbeat of Tesla and its customers are lining up just fine. That's one reason they are so successful.