Next "version" of Model S

[Mediocrates]

As I understood it, you made the point that a car's price being the sum of its whole needs to be considered, not just the price category and corresponding interior.

In order to avoid Fallacy Of Division, yes. It is a logical error to ascribe a property of the whole to specific components. This is independent of any concept of vehicles.

To me that included the implication that we shouldn't look at Tesla's price tag and compare its interior to other cars in its price. I responded by noting that Tesla's interior is missing stuff cars half its starting price have, so the idea that it is merely the "rest of the car" being expensive - and that's why Tesla's interiors are missing stuff - does not IMO hold water.

We can compare Tesla interiors to any other car interiors for the sake of evaluation (objective and subjective) and prioritization, which can be a matter of opinion. It can be discussed as to whether or not the value sum of components in a Tesla amounts to the overall price of the vehicle. This can be done without logic error and with opinion. I take no issue with any of that.

The logical error is in the step from "Car X is of price Y value" to "Component of Car X is of price Y value". This is an instance of the aforementioned fallacy and is not a matter of opinion, regardless of the magnitude of Y.

 

[peach beaver]

Throw in the M3 which has the same qualities, and more or less the only difference left between MS and M3, apart from luggage space, is "luxury" (quod non, if we want to be honest). Tesla probably won't be cutting 20% off the price of the MS tomorrow so what I would expect in the coming months is a refresh really taking the MS into the luxury class, or at least differentiating it more from the M3.

(Of course there will always be a market for the MS as a supercar, but that market will probably shrink

There's nothing wrong with this scenario. We're surely already seeing a flattening or decline in Model S production. And after the Model 3, Model Y, and widespread solar/energy storage, I'd like to see a repeat of the Master Plan. Make a new generation of expensive cars, then a new generation of cheap cars. Repeat again.

By the time the Model S is ready for another refresh, I'd rather see a coupe/roadster!

Given the current constraints on production lines, I could see Tesla actually planning on a relative shrink in Model S supply. Let it be the niche Audi A7/RS7 competitor. Perhaps bump up Model X production if necessary, but now that the Model 3 and Model Y are coming, let those really be the focus. The Model S doesn't need to grow in features or production volume by comparison to those two, which do need to 10X or 100X+ the Model S' volumes. Right?

 

[Camera-Cruiser]

Just make the interior quieter, and I mean BMW 7 series quiet or better. Give us better seats, with obvious attention to detail, and ventilated too. Door pockets? Meh, but then again why not. Better lighting everywhere. Yup. Improve the carpet and anything you might touch too. Plus, bring back a real sport suspension and staggered wheels too. Those who want it generally know that the tires are going to cost more and can't be rotated. Carbon fiber wheels. Sure, as spendy option, why not.

I'll even give them a 300 pound increase in weight budget to do it.

Then again, go full opposite and make an "R" version for race, and lighten it up, properly suspend it, and take limiters off the battery with the appropriate changes in warranty too. People will pay more to go fast.

But, start with quiet.

 

[mmoon24]

I would not be surprised if the leather quality of the Model 3 is similar to the Model S...because the Model S was not worth its price to begin with...

With that being said, Tesla will definitely need to step it up in order differentiate between the Model 3 and S. Better leather, faster processor/better UI for the touch screen, having TRUE adaptive headlights, better cabin noise...

But I fear that given the Model 3 sales are going to exceed that of the Model S...that's where the money will eventually be and the Model S may become neglected as a result.

 

[ahkahn]

I would not be surprised if the leather quality of the Model 3 is similar to the Model S...because the Model S was not worth its price to begin with...

With that being said, Tesla will definitely need to step it up in order differentiate between the Model 3 and S. Better leather, faster processor/better UI for the touch screen, having TRUE adaptive headlights, better cabin noise...

But I fear that given the Model 3 sales are going to exceed that of the Model S...that's where the money will eventually be and the Model S may become neglected as a result.

Tesla has been very frank about the Model 3 sales exceeding that of the Model S.... it's no secret. That's the entire plan. The Model S will always be the flagship, though. They've also been very frank about that.

 

[tccartier]

In looking over these posts, various articles etc. it seems most are trying to make the Model S fit into a category to justify it's price. IMHO the Model S defined it's own category to justify it's price. It still stands alone in the market as the only car with it's combination of efficiency, performance, utility. you can have damned near supercar performance while getting nearly 100 MPGE and seating for 7 in a four door family friendly package that looks like sex on wheels. You have on board connectivity complete with the ability for the car to gain features and functions years after you bought it. Who else does that? You get arguably one of if not the safest car ever built.

While one could add all sorts of luxury gizmos and eleventy two way adjustable foot rests etc. all of that fluff can and does add weight which has the potential to reduce range and performance when you don't have a constantly churning ICE to drag it all along, and that wastes enough of it's fuel energy in waste heat alone to probably power a Model S down the road.

If Model S buyers at large REALLY wanted luxury barges then why is the Model S spanking the S-Class, the 7-Series, Audi, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Porsche, etc. etc. They would have bought one of those instead of a Model S don't you think??

We should be asking "Model S owners why they bought them". Contained in their answers would be the reasons they thought the price was justified, and the criteria that defines the "class" the Model S occupies, or has created!

 

[CSFTN]

Just make the interior quieter, and I mean BMW 7 series quiet or better. Give us better seats, with obvious attention to detail, and ventilated too. Door pockets? Meh, but then again why not. Better lighting everywhere. Yup. Improve the carpet and anything you might touch too. Plus, bring back a real sport suspension and staggered wheels too.

.... But, start with quiet.

IMO New cars are MUCH quieter than a 2013 P85. And new seats are dramatically improved over the original seats or the Next Gen. Been in a new one recently? I agree about the sports/Plus suspension.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Tesla has been very frank about the Model 3 sales exceeding that of the Model S.... it's no secret. That's the entire plan. The Model S will always be the flagship, though. They've also been very frank about that.

That is not the question, though. The question is: Do we believe they will and/or can keep the Model S a real flagship - especially interior-wise - not just a flagship in size, price and performance only?

Maybe they will. But given Tesla's recent checkered history in product changes (many for the worse) and focus on the quarterly sale optimization, when Model 3 overtakes Model S sales sufficiently (and latter are no longer so desperately needed), it certainly remains to be seen how much TLC that flagship status results in - especially in the interior department which Tesla has been overlooking for ages now.

 

[Bet TSLA]

In looking over these posts, various articles etc. it seems most are trying to make the Model S fit into a category to justify it's price. IMHO the Model S defined it's own category to justify it's price.... While one could add all sorts of luxury gizmos and eleventy two way adjustable foot rests etc. all of that fluff can and does add weight which has the potential to reduce range and performance....

Exactly! The Model S has never been a luxury car. It's a super high performance family hatchback, a previously unknown thing. And while it's an expensive family hatchback, it's a really cheap high performance car. Pretty much everything about its design is for efficiency (including pseudo-luxury features like the retracting door handles and heated seats).

Personally, I have no interest in paying for "luxury" features, and I certainly don't want to give up range or performance for them. I commend Tesla for having a vision and sticking to it. People complaining about the lack of luxury features want something that Tesla doesn't make.

I am quite sure that Model 3 will be similar, in that everything will be there for a purpose. Compromises will be made to keep the car inexpensive, and efficiency will win out over performance. There won't be any luxury features. And Tesla has been very clear that they are designing it for automated manufacturability.

If the Model S does undergo any redesign, including the interior, then I believe the main purpose will also be manufacturability. I could see them adding some things not available on the Model 3, maybe a HUD or something to make it extra quiet. But I seriously doubt that anybody's going to see "luxuries" like foot massagers.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

In looking over these posts, various articles etc. it seems most are trying to make the Model S fit into a category to justify it's price.

The main gist of this part of the thread and threads like it in recent times has IMO been comparing the relative interior quality and features of Model S to other cars on the market, which finds them lacking when compared to a range of car classes and pricepoints. This isn't, thus, about trying to fit Model S into 70k or 100k category and saying it doesn't fit.

I guess the only category we are commonly fitting Model S into is one of a premium car, but even there some on this forum recently make comparisons to Volkswagen interiors and find Model S lacking compared to them... and I have myself compared Tesla's limited interior choices to those of Toyota.

While one could add all sorts of luxury gizmos and eleventy two way adjustable foot rests etc. all of that fluff can and does add weight which has the potential to reduce range and performance when you don't have a constantly churning ICE to drag it all along, and that wastes enough of it's fuel energy in waste heat alone to probably power a Model S down the road.

First of all, IMO this is an effort on your part (intentional or not) to make improved interior features sound pointless and heavy, which hardly many of the missing ones are. Indeed many are features Tesla used to ship themselves, but later discontinued, like ventilated seats. The real answer IMO is: Tesla is lacking in expertise and priorities when it comes to making a great interior.

If Model S buyers at large REALLY wanted luxury barges then why is the Model S spanking the S-Class, the 7-Series, Audi, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Porsche, etc. etc. They would have bought one of those instead of a Model S don't you think??

Because it is much cheaper and not really aimed at the luxury barge competition. As Elon Musk says himself, it is more of a 5 Series or 6 Series competitor anyway. And given its unique nature as a large-battery EV, it (together with Model X to lesser degree) is gaining buyers from a wide range of car segments (down and upstream), that otherwise would have gone for some other car size. We have people here who came up from a Prius, as well as people like me who came down from an Audi A8.

This is also why IMO Tesla could be wise to consider aiming at making Model S the Audi A6 / 5 Series priced and just moderately improve its interior (though priced options). There would be less work to get that done and probably more volume for them to be had around the 5 Series segment than trying to directly compete with 7 Series...

We should be asking "Model S owners why they bought them". Contained in their answers would be the reasons they thought the price was justified, and the criteria that defines the "class" the Model S occupies, or has created!

It is obvious to me that being the sole large-battery EV on the market is why many bought the Model S. Performance has been another reason. It also has a rather unique software system, another benefit. Some may like Model S's spartan interior design style (and IMO there is no need to change that to improve quality or features), but I'd wager most bought the Model S despite its interior, not because of it.

And once the main headlines gain competition, or indeed if Tesla wants people to continue buying Model S over Model 3, Tesla might be wise to address the interior question better.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Personally, I have no interest in paying for "luxury" features, and I certainly don't want to give up range or performance for them.

Why would you be against Tesla offering them as paid options, though? If the competition has them, and people want to buy them, wouldn't it make sense to encourage Tesla towards having those options?

Why as a customer would we want Tesla to optimize for manufacturing automation at the cost of features offered to us? Why would that ever be a priority for a customer of a product?

But I seriously doubt that anybody's going to see "luxuries" like foot massagers.

I agree on that particular point. I believe Tesla will continue to remain in the 5 Series range of comforts, not the 7 Series. They have such a long way to reach the latter, massively long way, and the luxury sedan is not really a volume market.

 

[Bet TSLA]

Why as a customer would we want Tesla to optimize for manufacturing automation at the cost of features offered to us? Why would that ever be a priority for a customer of a product?

Because it makes the car cheaper to build and increases availability.

 

[Bet TSLA]

Why would you be against Tesla offering them as paid options, though? If the competition has them, and people want to buy them, wouldn't it make sense to encourage Tesla towards having those options?

I don't care that much, so long as such things are optional. But I don't think it serves Tesla's interests to try to be all things to all people. And Tesla has never been a competitor in the luxury market and I don't think ought to try to be. It's a waste of resources.

 

[JeffreyY]

Guys at a recent Tesla event, I was told by a relatively high level person in Tesla that the with the advent of the model 3, the Model S will go higher end. So for those concerned, rest easy the there will be enhancements to the S to distinguish it from the 3 as a more luxurious option.

 

[Bet TSLA]

Guys at a recent Tesla event, I was told by a relatively high level person in Tesla that the with the advent of the model 3, the Model S will go higher end. So for those concerned, rest easy the there will be enhancements to the S to distinguish it from the 3 as a more luxurious option.

"Higher end" does not necessarily mean luxurious. It might mean quicker acceleration. It might mean HUD. It might mean something weird like solar paint. Luxury is one possible thing, but not (I think) the most likely thing.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

^ There is of course the rumor that Model S/X might get an interior refresh with a possibly vertical center screen and a HUD replacing the instrument cluster display. So agree on HUD, plausible.

I also agree that higher-end for Tesla probably does not mean 7 Series / Audi A8 type of luxury, but good to hear something is being done to better define the Model S (and hopefully Model X) products in the post-Model 3 era. Especially considering the first round of real competition in the high-end segment is slated to launch in 2018 (Audi e-tron quattro and Jaguar i-Pace).

 

[JeffreyY]

"Higher end" does not necessarily mean luxurious. It might mean quicker acceleration. It might mean HUD. It might mean something weird like solar paint. Luxury is one possible thing, but not (I think) the most likely thing.

Actually, it was pretty clear from the conversation he meant luxury. However, of course, high end Mercedes have things like HUD (S Class), Magic Sky Control, etc so, sure, more gizmos also counts.

 

[Spidy]

In looking over these posts, various articles etc. it seems most are trying to make the Model S fit into a category to justify it's price. IMHO the Model S defined it's own category to justify it's price. It still stands alone in the market as the only car with it's combination of efficiency, performance, utility. you can have damned near supercar performance while getting nearly 100 MPGE and seating for 7 in a four door family friendly package that looks like sex on wheels. You have on board connectivity complete with the ability for the car to gain features and functions years after you bought it. Who else does that? You get arguably one of if not the safest car ever built.

While one could add all sorts of luxury gizmos and eleventy two way adjustable foot rests etc. all of that fluff can and does add weight which has the potential to reduce range and performance when you don't have a constantly churning ICE to drag it all along, and that wastes enough of it's fuel energy in waste heat alone to probably power a Model S down the road.

If Model S buyers at large REALLY wanted luxury barges then why is the Model S spanking the S-Class, the 7-Series, Audi, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Porsche, etc. etc. They would have bought one of those instead of a Model S don't you think??

We should be asking "Model S owners why they bought them". Contained in their answers would be the reasons they thought the price was justified, and the criteria that defines the "class" the Model S occupies, or has created!

The efficiently on the Model 3 will be very similar, if not better.

To really get the Supercar performance you have to get the P100D. The majority does not get that one. It also really more of a drag racer than a supercar as it lacks things like a lightweight design, sport suspension or aerodynamics for the track.

Yes, you can seat 7, but again it's not something most people need and these days many probably rather get the X. Also the E-Class does the same.

And while you have connectivity there are areas where the car also really lacks, like not even being able to connect you phone via USB, no waypoints, no CarPlay and so on. And again you most likely get all the in the Model 3, so what justifies the price tag on the Model S?

"If Model S buyers at large REALLY wanted luxury barges then why" and that is exactly the issue people point out. Many Model S buyers seem not to want this, which means once the Model 3 is out that will do just fine for them. Sure some will buy the S because they want a larger car, but you will just as much find people who prefer a smaller car. To me it's really not how the Model S competes again German luxury cars, but in order to keep sales up it has to justify it's price over the Mode 3.

 

[sandpiper]

Guys at a recent Tesla event, I was told by a relatively high level person in Tesla that the with the advent of the model 3, the Model S will go higher end. So for those concerned, rest easy the there will be enhancements to the S to distinguish it from the 3 as a more luxurious option.

That's good to hear. It's virtually impossible that the smart folks at Tesla didn't consider this situation a long time ago. And I'm sure the intent is/was to upgrade the S around the time that the 3 hits the road. But... did they achieve it? They've been busy and it might have slid.

 

[bob_p]

At some point, other manufacturers will introduce a long range EV competing with the Model S with similar size, range and performance.

When that happens, Tesla will likely have comparable (if not better) features in order to defend their Model S market. This includes not only the interior cabin luxury features other manufacturers will likely include in cars in this price range, but also with the onboard software, where Tesla is lagging further and further behind in functionality (and quality).

We have two Model S today (classic P85 and 100D) and have two Model 3's reserved (1 will replace the P85). When it's time to replace them, we would likely stick with the combination of a Model 3 for local driving and a Model S for long distance drives (and when we needed more storage capacity).