NHTSA Tire issue reported on Tesla 21 Inch tires

[huntjo]

Mine are 21 inch michelin ps2 on a P85+. These michelins are warranted to drive 20K miles, but if I got 10-15K miles on them, I would be thrilled. I drive it very kindly and averaging 334KW for 5 K miles.
The reason it is important for another authority to know is that Tesla has done nothing for any owner that has this early tire wear issue thus far. Are owners satisfied replacing tires every 5K miles?? For I am not. I was never told or read anywhere to expect tire wear so severely. My M6 has the same tires, and driven hard it lasted me 16K miles.

That's the thing. You keep saying Tesla has done nothing for these people, and yet there are anecdotes of Tesla recognizing and correcting alignment issues. Why does your anecdotal evidence trump theirs? Could it not be that Tesla is working on correcting a systems/ process issue in which some customers are getting treated properly and some are not being heard in an overworked center? It known that it is common for cars to get a bit out of alignment in transport from the factory. It is known that many (most?) service centers outsource their alignment to a 3rd party. It is not known what percentage of cars are checked for alignment in their pre-delivery prep either originally or after the alignment concerns were brought to Tesla's attention. I sincerely hope that everyone with premature wear makes sure to get Tesla involved in making sure their alignment is as close as possible to spot on. Reporting to the NHTSA without letting Tesla fix the problem does no good. If your service center tells you 5000 is "normal", speak to the manager, then the regional manager, then Jerome or whomever is next in line until they take care of it, since I believe (?) suspension/ alignment problems fall under warranty.

 

[Hybris]

If we are hit by the same tire wear on our Eurocars im sure there would be time for a generic law suit. But lets see how things work out the coming months. Most people here will be on winter tires for 5 months. Will be interesting to see how they wear... Used to have my winter tires for like three to four years on my performance cars. If they would wear in one winter that would not be ok at all and Tesla need to pay for replacements. In you never drive hard and DSC minimize wear. Asume all cars are aligned and tested before delivery... Including alignment etc...

- - - Updated - - -

What car buyer of a 4 door sedan is okay changing tires at 5K miles. In my M5, they lasted 15K miles with the same michelins.
Don't you think Tesla should address this issue??? It does seem like a safety concern to me. Who would ever think to replace tires that early??
Do they expect me to replace tires 2-3 times a year?? That would negate any advantage of not putting in gas....

Totally agree! Defending this tirewear is plain silly. I come frome Alpinas and my last was a 1M with PS2... Guess what I drove the car very hard with DSC off... Not burning rubber on purpose but still it was a car built for powerslides... When sold after 15000 km the tires was still in very good shape... So come on! Stop defending the tirewear. If it uneven on the inside something is wrong with the car. Period! After reading many threads it sems that its not all cars but still seem to be way to many...

 

[jerry33]

General comments:

1. If Tesla actually used R compound tires, then 5000 mi / 3150 km would be acceptable. However they don't. (R compound tires are racing tires that have DOT approval. They're used in classes where all competitors must use DOT approved tires.)

2. The Model S appears to be very picky about rear toe. If it's spot-on, then tire life appears to be fine. If it's not spot-on, tire life suffers--sometimes dramatically. Does anyone actually have the spot-on specs?

3. Even if perfectly aligned at the factory, it's easy for the alignment to get messed up during transit. An alignment before delivery would fix this, but I don't know of any car manufacturer or dealer that does this. (I haven't purchased every make of car though.) At most the dealers check to see if the steering wheel is straight.

4. 21" tires will never wear as well as 19" tires given the same type of tire.

5. It's unfortunate that the camber amplifies any toe misalignment, but that's just how it works. It's worth getting a proper alignment from a reputable frame shop that works on cars with air suspension. The last one I had (not on the Model S) cost $250. That's a fair price for the work involved.

 

[Lloyd]

Mine are 21 inch michelin ps2 on a P85+. These michelins are warranted to drive 20K miles, but if I got 10-15K miles on them, I would be thrilled. I drive it very kindly and averaging 334KW for 5 K miles.
The reason it is important for another authority to know is that Tesla has done nothing for any owner that has this early tire wear issue thus far. Are owners satisfied replacing tires every 5K miles?? For I am not. I was never told or read anywhere to expect tire wear so severely. My M6 has the same tires, and driven hard it lasted me 16K miles.

If your Michelins are the original equipment, there is NO WARRENTY. The warrenty only applies for tires that you have purchased, not from the Manufacturer. There is no wear guarantee, or hazard for the tires on the car when you purchased it from Tesla. It has to do with the agreement with Michelin to supply OEM tires for Tesla.

 

[texex91]

If your Michelins are the original equipment, there is NO WARRENTY. The warrenty only applies for tires that you have purchased, not from the Manufacturer. There is no wear guarantee, or hazard for the tires on the car when you purchased it from Tesla. It has to do with the agreement with Michelin to supply OEM tires for Tesla.

That's the same for every car manufacturer.

 

[FlasherZ]

Another crazy complaint to mommy government. *sigh*

Tesla is working on the 21" wear issue. Some cars have it, some do not. 4,000 miles ago I had a new set of 21" tires put on the car, and the belts are now felt on the inside shoulder of the rear tires along with a significant wear-angle. The center contact patch of the tire still has 5/32" to 7/32" of tread left. My car was specifically checked on the alignment rack before this last set and was "within specs".

Some specifics about my case - given that I live in a rural area, almost all my miles are highway miles when the car is riding in "low" suspension mode, and 70%+ of the time I have all four kids in the back of the car.

I feel comfortable that Tesla is working on the issue with me, so no need for mommy government.

 

[JohnnyMac]

Another crazy complaint to mommy government. *sigh*

Tesla is working on the 21" wear issue. Some cars have it, some do not. 4,000 miles ago I had a new set of 21" tires put on the car, and the belts are now felt on the inside shoulder of the rear tires along with a significant wear-angle. The center contact patch of the tire still has 5/32" to 7/32" of tread left. My car was specifically checked on the alignment rack before this last set and was "within specs".

Some specifics about my case - given that I live in a rural area, almost all my miles are highway miles when the car is riding in "low" suspension mode, and 70%+ of the time I have all four kids in the back of the car.

I feel comfortable that Tesla is working on the issue with me, so no need for mommy government.

Very glad to hear that. You seem to have it worse than many. Please keep us posted on the resolution.

 

[Kraken]

That bulletin seems to relate to premature bearing wear, but not tire wear:
http://www.automd.com/tsb/bulletin_b344740/
Here's another one that addresses noise/vibration:
http://www.automd.com/tsb/bulletin_b348358/

i suppose it doesn't say why they are doing this in the report they gave me. I thought I'd read somewhere that it was because of the tire wear.

 

[Right_Said_Fred]

I think this is primarily a p85+ issue as we can't rotate our tires, and the suspension enhancement seems to come from factory out of alignment. That being said, I think a few others have had issues with p85s.... I'd just be rotating my tires extremely frequently if I were them.

To me it doesn't make sense to rotate tires extremely frequently. Rotating the rear tires to the front makes sense, but if you then rotate them again you go back to the old situation, right? It makes sense to do only one rotation with a pair of tires. Or am I overlooking something?

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Local service center performed an in-house alignment on my P85 last week. They said it required toe and caster adjustment, and they also re-checked the toe link bolts which they found to be "in spec". I went through a drive unit replacement a month or so ago that required a re-alignment. Unfortunately at that time the alignment had to be outsourced to a 3rd party because service was operating out of a temporary facility. The 3rd party did not do a very good job.

My alignment now feels as good as it did when the car was brand new and factory fresh. I had no complaints about the alignment when the car was brand new, only after it was serviced.

 

[FlasherZ]

To the person who called my post above "anti-government zealotry" in a negative reputation comment, might I suggest you grab your nearest dictionary or look here:

Zealotry - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Thank you for your support. In the meantime, Tesla is helping me work through these tire issues and I'm not going to run like a spoiled toddler to tattle to mommy government.

 

[jerry33]

To me it doesn't make sense to rotate tires extremely frequently. Rotating the rear tires to the front makes sense, but if you then rotate them again you go back to the old situation, right? It makes sense to do only one rotation with a pair of tires. Or am I overlooking something?

The purpose of tire rotation is to have all tires wear out at the same time so that you always start with a set of four tires that are exactly the same. The first rotation should be around 1500 miles (2500 km) to give every tire a turn on the drive axle early in its life. This will set up a (hopefully) even wear pattern and reduce the chances of odd wear or vibrations later in the tire's life. Other rotations are just to keep the tread depth similar on both axles. The more correct the alignment, the fewer rotations should be required.

However, frequent rotations don't really hurt anything--other than your wallet or take up your time--and if there is a small alignment problem (means one that you think isn't worth fixing) frequent rotations may keep the tires from showing uneven wear. The problem will still be there and overall the tire life will be shorter, but I've found many places that perform alignments don't do such a good job either from basic lack of knowledge about the principles of alignment, poorly calibrated equipment, or both. Normally dealers give the alignment jobs to the second most junior person (the most junior person gets to mount tires) who only knows how to do what the alignment machine indicates. When the alignment machine is out of calibration or is operated incorrectly...

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Complaints to governing bodies should be the option of last resort, but thankful that we have those government bodies to regulate our industries. Tesla is in for a rude awakening when it comes to Europe's governing bodies, the standards over there are much stricter and the governments take a much more active role in regulating products.

 

[FlasherZ]

I agree that there are times when oversight is necessary; I watched as a relative attempted to deal with GM and two different dealers who didn't want to track down a troubling issue with her vehicle. Using the lemon laws and attorney general got her a resolution. I agree it's a last-resort measure that should be there (and therefore the reason I'm not an anti-government "zealot" but rather a person who prefers to deal with Tesla rather than try to strong-arm them). Unfortunately, there are those on this board who insist that they must first run to tattle, even when they know they should work privately with Tesla. That is inappropriate and a waste of my money (as a taxpayer), and is an exceptionally inefficient and impersonal way to deal with any issues.

More discussion should go here:
When to report NHTSA issues?

As far as the 21" tire issue goes, it's clear we're dealing with two different scenarios...

1. Those who expect 40,000 miles out of soft, sticky summer tires and are surprised to learn that 10,000 to 12,000 miles is normal for such tires many times. These people are angry because they're used to paying $100 for a cheap 14" passenger car tire and are surprised to learn that 4x the cost, 4x as often, is a bit expensive. Tesla is suggesting to these customers that they should go to the 19" wheels if they would like the longevity of tires that they are used to.

2. Those who are experiencing this:

(This after 4,000 miles on a brand new set of Continentals. I dragged my finger across the wear bars so that you can see the contrast relative to the tire's surface. There is between 5/32" and 7/32" of tread left on these tires.)

I'm in camp #2. The local service manager told me when I called with my tire concern that many owners are learning #1 the hard way. I listened, then sent him a picture and simply said "I can understand if there was even wear -- or even partial wear -- across the contact patch of the tire; but when we see inside shoulder wear at a 45 degree angle or better after only 4,000 miles, this cannot be considered 'normal' wear and tear."

Both the service center and engineering in Fremont are studying the problem and looking at a few things with my car. Tesla has been nothing but cooperative the entire time we've been looking at this.

 

[lolachampcar]

I've just seen the forth case of confirmed toe out on the rear in another thread. What does your rear toe look like?

 

[FlasherZ]

I've just seen the forth case of confirmed toe out on the rear in another thread. What does your rear toe look like?

I have not taken it to an independent alignment rack to determine what the toe looks like, although that sounds like a good idea. Tesla told me in August that the car was adjusted slightly, and was within specs, although I didn't get a copy of the report. In my case, the negative camber is naked-eye obvious at standard suspension height, with no weight in the car. Add 4 kids in the back and most of my miles in "low" suspension height - recipe for this, I think.

 

[Kraken]

To me it doesn't make sense to rotate tires extremely frequently. Rotating the rear tires to the front makes sense, but if you then rotate them again you go back to the old situation, right? It makes sense to do only one rotation with a pair of tires. Or am I overlooking something?

Like Jerry said, you aren't going to rotate them back the next day. You are going to wait until the ones that are now on the back are worse than the originals. It seems a good technique would be to rotate initially at 1500 miles and then every 3000 after that. Going twice as long for the remaining rotations means that the fresher tires catch up in wear for the first 1500 miles, and then the next 1500 they become the more worn ones for 1500 miles.

 

[100thMonkey]

...As far as the 21" tire issue goes, it's clear we're dealing with two different scenarios...

I agree with much of what you say but the local service center is saying that 5-6K miles is normal, that inside tire wear comes with the negative camber and that's that. When Tesla is trying to pass off this problem as "normal", that's where good level headed people call BS and then begin using other avenues to get the point across, such as the NHTSA.

 

[jerry33]

I agree with much of what you say but the local service center is saying that 5-6K miles is normal, that inside tire wear comes with the negative camber and that's that. When Tesla is trying to pass off this problem as "normal", that's where good level headed people call BS and then begin using other avenues to get the point across, such as the NHTSA.

Unfortunately, Tesla has hired service people who used to work at traditional dealerships. They really don't have a lot of choice in this because that's where the available car service folks are located. The rule at dealerships is to say whatever's necessary to get the customer to go away because the important thing to the dealer is to put through as many cars through service in a day and sell as many parts as possible. Actually solving a problem or referring to the manufacturer's documentation and service bulletins takes time, so that's generally not done. Two red flag phrases are "Never saw that before" and "It's normal".

To be fair, many of the Tesla service people have abandoned the dealer method and are focused on making Tesla ownership the best car experience ever, but a few haven't. Old habits are hard to break. This is one of the areas that will take some time to get right.

I'd contact ownership experience first and then Jerome. Only if those avenues failed would I contact the government.

 

[ckessel]

I agree with much of what you say but the local service center is saying that 5-6K miles is normal, that inside tire wear comes with the negative camber and that's that. When Tesla is trying to pass off this problem as "normal", that's where good level headed people call BS and then begin using other avenues to get the point across, such as the NHTSA.

+1. I'm all for folks trying to resolve it themselves, but I'm not going to condemn someone for contacting NHTSA for a couple reasons. One, the point 100thMonkey makes. Second, even if folks that seek assistance get it, there may be folks that don't realize they can/should raise an issue if they are told 5k is "normal", or there are blowouts because some folks don't check their tires, or they do, but wouldn't expect to have to check that early, etc.

NHTSA can track larger trends if the get data, that's part of what such organizations are for. I might trust Tesla to do the right thing by individuals as they look for a systemic problem, but I wouldn't trust other vendors to be taking care of individuals for more than cover-up, hush money reasons.