NHTSA Vehicle Speed Control Complaints

[tahdah793]

I don't think you are going to get anything better than this: Tesla Hacker Says Unintended Acceleration Is Impossible In Teslas

“The drive units contain at least three distinct pieces of hardware that all simultaneously crosscheck any pedal input. The pedal hardware itself contains two independent sensors that must agree as well. This way, only a genuine pedal input will cause torque to be commanded. There are additional crosschecks of this in other modules as well, such as the ABS.

While Tesla is far from perfect, the powertrain control setup, specifically related to these sudden acceleration claims, is something they deserve a lot of credit on. It's a solid system, with a ton of thought put into how to make it as safe as possible. There's plenty of things to call out where Tesla has done something outright stupid, or dare I say it unethical, over the years... But this just isn't one of them. They've done this right.”

Tesla has sold about 500,000 Model 3's. Using 20 "possible" examples of a defect to influence your buying decision seems a bit strange. People claim unintended acceleration across every manufacturer and every model. This has been going on for decades and will likely continue. Pedal confusion is real. When people press the accelerator thinking it is the brake their natural instinct is to press it harder.

Thanks much for the reference to the CleanTechnica article and it's pointer to an exhaustive forum entry on this same subject! I'm glad to read that you have confidence in their design of the powertrain but as a still naive Tesla observer if the TACC software is capable of acceleration then a "glitch," which could only be observed in 20/300000 vehicles in very limited cases, is just a complicated bug; or, apparently, as many owners confidently believe are user errors. So, I'm happy to continue to work on easing my discomfort with the nhtsa complaints and move on to the order phase.

Thanks again!

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So, maybe the right answer for me is to wait and see what nhtsa says 6mo to a year from now but I was hoping to get some insights that would help us to decide to order sooner than later.

I wouldn't worry about any of this nonsense. I would worry about running your new car into something when you press the accelerator instead of the brake, though. Driving a Tesla initially is quite different than driving other cars, and your choice of whether to use creep, hold, etc., and your choice of whether to read the owner's manual to understand how your vehicle operates, probably does have an impact on whether you're likely to fail to operate the car properly.

So I wouldn't worry about going down that rabbit hole of true vehicle malfunction, and instead focus on the ways in which you will accidentally crash your car into things - they are myriad! I would worry about mode confusion, where your car is in a different mode than you think, due to user error, causing you to lose control or hit someone. I would worry about accidentally running over parking stops because of carelessness, and ruining your battery (a $15k insurance claim). I would worry about hitting road debris and ruining your battery (a $15k insurance claim). I would make sure that after 10% loss of battery capacity that the car will still serve your needs just fine (it probably will). I would worry about over-reliance on the safety features causing you to become complacent and run into someone. I would worry about whether in winter in North Carolina it will have sufficient range for your specific needs. I would worry about whether you've run the cost analysis to see whether it is really going to be saving you money, if that is the objective (it may not be). I would worry about whether you're going to be irritated by the automatic wipers. I would worry about whether your home is set up for a proper charging setup which won't be annoying. I would worry about Superchargers becoming too crowded over time, if they are something you are going to rely on for road trips. I would worry about what sort of vehicle you're coming from - are you going to be happy with the fit and finish and the road noise of your expensive new car? I would worry about the rapid EV acceleration catching people off guard and resulting in a collision. I would worry about what the repair time will be if someone happens to rear-end you or otherwise damage your vehicle. I would worry about whether you can keep the car in a warm-ish environment in the winter so that you have minimal costs associated with pre-heating the car & minimal annoyance due to limited regen. I would worry about making the right choice as far as trim level (battery type, performance, etc.)

There are so many things to worry about!

As far as the phantom braking "issues" - you don't have to use those features (adaptive cruise control). There have been no reports of AEB causing phantom braking that I am aware of. I have not once experienced a phantom braking event which was particularly sudden. Of course the car has slowed dramatically on occasion, but not in a way that would result in an accident unless someone had been seriously tailgating me.

Personally, I love my car, it's awesome. I have absolutely zero fear that it will accelerate on its own, but I constantly worry about crashing it into something - it's so darn fast and gets going so quickly that people don't necessarily expect it, and they can easily pull out in front and expose themselves to a collision, if I am not ready to react. I have to watch for potholes and road obstructions like a hawk - hitting a rock in the road could easily result in $15k of damage.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

TACC software is capable of acceleration then a "glitch,"

TACC absolutely has accelerated into vehicles that were partially in front of the vehicle - there's a video floating around of a truck partially in the lane which gets hit. That's no glitch. It's just a limitation that is clearly outlined in the owner's manual (basically, you should never rely on TACC to stop for you).

There's also a recent video on Twitter (and linked to here I think) of a Model 3 accelerating into a car carrier directly in front of it. No malfunction there - the car simply misinterpreted the environment, and the driver of the car was not...driving. Or paying any attention apparently. Just remember that you're always driving the vehicle (especially when using TACC or AP!) and you'll probably be fine, assuming you know exactly how it operates.

These are all user errors. That's not to say you should ignore them - they're real problems - with the behavior of the drivers in these two cases, and I would definitely learn what you can from those human mistakes. The system itself is just fine, it is just limited. Eventually it might be good enough to have this stuff not happen, but that's not the state of things now, and that's fine! It's still really nice to have adaptive cruise and lane keep assistance in many situations.

I would be especially careful, if you do get the car, about how you behave once you are very familiar with the vehicle, and experienced in using it. That's where the mistakes really start to happen - when you think you know how it is going to behave. Just think of the car as exceedingly stupid, and you'll probably make the right calls.

 

[drtimhill]

And, unless all of the 20+ individual complaints are all fraudulent and submitted by this documented, infamous short-seller (my trades aren't public information), it seems to me that there are real people driving real Tesla 3 cars that they perceive to have a problem. It could be user error in all of the cases if so I would expect Tesla to be eager to provide the data. In any case I don't know that yet. So, maybe the right answer for me is to wait and see what nhtsa says 6mo to a year from now but I was hoping to get some insights that would help us to decide to order sooner than later.

Obviously this is a decision that you need to make for yourself, but di you compare this to other manufacturers records? It really has been well documented that this current complaint is a short-seller (they are in panic mode atm) .. how they managed to create the complaint is neither here nor there.

 

[megant113]

Out of curiosity, I looked at NHTSA complaints against the 2018 Toyota Camry, and found several complaints of unintended acceleration. Same for the 2019 Honda Accord. If you go looking, I bet these complaints exist against most cars, it's just been blown out of proportion with Teslas.

 

[jpfive]

You really have to be careful with statements like this, as they are just plain wrong.

If I'm at a stop and I've got TACC on, the car will absolutely accelerate on it's on.
Now, in these cases, it was indeed something else.

The car will accelerate in TACC if you have allowed it to come to a stop on its own behind the car in front of it. Then it will wait patiently for the car in front to accelerate and then move forward to keep pace - within the confines of the speed you have selected. If you stop at an intersection using the brakes, TACC will have been terminated - until you once again, with driver input, select a cruising speed.

 

[Jenremoved]

Even if we take the complaints as non-manufactured, these are almost certainly instances of driver error. Malcolm Gladwell did a great podcast episode or two on whether this situation exists and the experts concluded that it is almost certainly always driver error pressing the wrong pedal.

As to why Tesla doesn’t “cooperate” with the NHTSA when they have no legal obligation to do so? I guarantee you it’s because they’re being advised by competent lawyers. Not because they have anything to hide, but because any decent regulatory attorney knows that there inviting regulators into your business, so to speak, is inviting them to find fault with something even if they exonerate you of their initial suspicions. It’s just how enforcement agencies like the NHTSA work and there’s no reason for Tesla to bend over backwards for them if they aren’t legally required to do so.

 

[ewoodrick]

The car will accelerate in TACC if you have allowed it to come to a stop on its own behind the car in front of it. Then it will wait patiently for the car in front to accelerate and then move forward to keep pace - within the confines of the speed you have selected. If you stop at an intersection using the brakes, TACC will have been terminated - until you once again, with driver input, select a cruising speed.

I'm sorry, but please read the thread before replying to a message.

I know it does that, that was exactly my point. In counterpoint to the statement that the car will not accelerate on its own.
My point being that the poster could not make a blanket statement that the car will not accelerate on its own.

 

[jpfive]

I'm sorry, but please read the thread before replying to a message.

I know it does that, that was exactly my point. In counterpoint to the statement that the car will not accelerate on its own.
My point being that the poster could not make a blanket statement that the car will not accelerate on its own.

Rebuke accepted.

 

[drtimhill]

As to why Tesla doesn’t “cooperate” with the NHTSA when they have no legal obligation to do so? I guarantee you it’s because they’re being advised by competent lawyers. Not because they have anything to hide, but because any decent regulatory attorney knows that there inviting regulators into your business, so to speak, is inviting them to find fault with something even if they exonerate you of their initial suspicions. It’s just how enforcement agencies like the NHTSA work and there’s no reason for Tesla to bend over backwards for them if they aren’t legally required to do so.

Totally agree. Sure, in theory you have nothing to hide if you are innocent, but just try asking a defense lawyer what you should do if wrongly accused of a crime. Answer: Say NOTHING. Because you are dealing with people who are motivated to get a "result", regardless of the cost to you.

 

[Ajaylondon]

First time post- I feel like such an idiot. My new Tesla 3 was delivered to home yesterday, literally dropped off.
After my first drive to a get a feel of the car I pulled into my drive. Pretty much came to stop and then instead of putting my foot on the brake I somehow hit the accelerator and drove into the front wall of my house, which caved in! All within the first 30 minutes of getting my car.
I honestly don't know what I did. I have parked in the same drive for 7 years with an auto Mercedes C220 and this has never happened.
I am wondering if it is better to use creep to force you to put your foot on the brake?

 

[derotam]

First time post- I feel like such an idiot. My new Tesla 3 was delivered to home yesterday, literally dropped off.
After my first drive to a get a feel of the car I pulled into my drive. Pretty much came to stop and then instead of putting my foot on the brake I somehow hit the accelerator and drove into the front wall of my house, which caved in! All within the first 30 minutes of getting my car.
I honestly don't know what I did. I have parked in the same drive for 7 years with an auto Mercedes C220 and this has never happened.
I am wondering if it is better to use creep to force you to put your foot on the brake?

Yeah, so it takes a bit of getting used to the accelerator response at low speeds as well as realizing that you are coming to a stop by NOT using the brake pedal which means your foot is still on the accelerator...so don't keep pressing that.

Sorry you ran the car into the wall.

 

[Saghost]

First time post- I feel like such an idiot. My new Tesla 3 was delivered to home yesterday, literally dropped off.
After my first drive to a get a feel of the car I pulled into my drive. Pretty much came to stop and then instead of putting my foot on the brake I somehow hit the accelerator and drove into the front wall of my house, which caved in! All within the first 30 minutes of getting my car.
I honestly don't know what I did. I have parked in the same drive for 7 years with an auto Mercedes C220 and this has never happened.
I am wondering if it is better to use creep to force you to put your foot on the brake?

Ouch. Sorry to hear that. Whether creep is safer is a hotly debated topic, with some folks saying exactly what you suggested.

Personally, I think creep is less safe, because sometimes you’re accelerating with your foot on the accelerator, and sometimes you are accelerating with your foot on the brake. More potential for confusion, especially pulling into parking.

One setting you probably want to turn on is obstacle aware acceleration, which will greatly reduce acceleration and sound alerts if it detects objects in your path while you are accelerating from a stop. I had thought it was on by default these days, but your described situation should have triggered it if it was.

 

[Ajaylondon]

Yeah, so it takes a bit of getting used to the accelerator response at low speeds as well as realizing that you are coming to a stop by NOT using the brake pedal which means your foot is still on the accelerator...so don't keep pressing that.

Sorry you ran the car into the wall.

Yeah, so it takes a bit of getting used to the accelerator response at low speeds as well as realizing that you are coming to a stop by NOT using the brake pedal which means your foot is still on the accelerator...so don't keep pressing that.

Sorry you ran the car into the wall.

Thanks for the feedback- What you just mentioned is what may have confused me- although I had come to stop my foot was still on the accelerator. driving with one pedal think confused me.
I am not trying to pass the buck at all but I do think Tesla could do with giving new owners a brief of differences between a Tesla and a conventional car. A handover and a small drive to ensure the driver is comfortable would have been nice. My car was simply dropped off to my house by a driver who showed me how to open the car and left.

 

[Ajaylondon]

Ouch. Sorry to hear that. Whether creep is safer is a hotly debated topic, with some folks saying exactly what you suggested.

Personally, I think creep is less safe, because sometimes you’re accelerating with your foot on the accelerator, and sometimes you are accelerating with your foot on the brake. More potential for confusion, especially pulling into parking.

One setting you probably want to turn on is obstacle aware acceleration, which will greatly reduce acceleration and sound alerts if it detects objects in your path while you are accelerating from a stop. I had thought it was on by default these days, but your described situation should have triggered it if it was.

Thanks for the tip Saghost- appreciate it.

 

[DaveRZ]

I am not trying to pass the buck at all but I do think Tesla could do with giving new owners a brief of differences between a Tesla and a conventional car. A handover and a small drive to ensure the driver is comfortable would have been nice. My car was simply dropped off to my house by a driver who showed me how to open the car and left.

Wow! So sorry this happened! Not the way you wanted to break-in the new car for sure! I assume no one was hurt (other than your pride and your bank account). Its very refreshing to see someone take responsibility for their mistake. We're all human and we've all done things we wish we could take back, yet so many insist it wasn't their fault simply to save some embarrassment. Kudos to you!

My delivery was a bit different than yours, I drove to Palm Springs and picked it up instead of having it dropped off. The delivery specialist had already set up the car in creep mode and low regen and explained he does this to ease people into the world of EV's rather than them being taken by surprise. I drove it for a couple miles then stopped at a parking lot and switched everything to what I assumed would be my preferred settings for the rest of my drive home. But yes, the settings were explained to me before I left. I was already familiar with the concept of all the settings having watched every youtube video imaginable prior to delivery, but was very appreciative that he took the time to set me up in a "safe" mode and explain it all.

 

[jrweiss98020]

Advice to anyone waiting for delivery or considering buying a Tesla: DOWNLOAD AND READ THE OWNERS' MANUAL - TWICE! The car is different than the one you are driving now. Some things may not make sense until you actually drive it, but you will at least be peripherally aware of how to work things...

 

[brianman]

I am not trying to pass the buck at all but I do think Tesla could do with giving new owners a brief of differences between a Tesla and a conventional car.

Look up "Obstacle-Aware Acceleration". They made this feature people like you. And, yes, you are trying to pass the buck.

 

[drtimhill]

Look up "Obstacle-Aware Acceleration". They made this feature people like you. And, yes, you are trying to pass the buck.

Whoa! .. No way, in any of his posts, did the OP try to shift the blame from himself. Quite the opposite, in fact. All he did was describe what happened, mention that it would have been nice to have a better walk-through (agreed), and thank people for suggestions as to how to avoid this.

 

[brianman]

Whoa! .. No way, in any of his posts, did the OP try to shift the blame from himself.

Read the part that I quoted. He's doing exactly that.