Nissan Asks “How Much of a Premium Would You Pay For a 150-Mile EPA-Rated LEAF?”

[evmile]

100 mile range for 2011

Many of us 2011 LEAF early adopters thought we were buying a car with a 100 mile range. When I first drove it on the freeway I discovered the car had a 73 mile range for my purposes. My feeling has always been Nissan should proved the option for a 40 kWh battery and let the market decide.

I think Tesla has proven when you have an EV with limited charging options most owners will chose the largest battery possible. I'm sure Tesla will be offering a 100 kWh battery as soon as Panasonic can supply the batteries and it will become the standard in a similar fashion the 85 kWh is installed in almost all Tesla Model S cars.

Larger batteries can be charged quicker and will last longer in addition to the obvious greater range.

 

[Crispix]

Exactly. I have a story that illustrates this point very nicely.

A fellow I know started a software company some years ago. The first version was DOS and was very popular. Business was going very well.

Then he got the idea that maybe he should write a Windows version. So he surveyed his customers. The answer came back as a resounding NO. Everyone liked the product the way it was.

He thought about it for a bit, and decided to do the Windows version anyway. When he released it, his sales TRIPLED overnight.

Beware of market research.

Great story! I think that same fellow now owns a couple of very nice electric vehicles, no?

 

[Mr X]

none until they completely redesign that exterior

 

[TonyWilliams]

I would pay up to $10k for a 48kWh LEAF (I'm dubious about using mileage claims).

No other changes required. I don't even want more power, since that would require new hardware.

Also, I would retain a 24kWh LEAF, and perhaps even add a 36 kWh one.

 

[andrewket]

none until they completely redesign that exterior

It is ugly, no doubt about it.

 

[Doug_G]

Great story! I think that same fellow now owns a couple of very nice electric vehicles, no?

If you're implying the story was autobiographical... no.

 

[DuncanWatson]

I don't find the Leaf ugly. I like it's look.

 

[Electroman]

I think Leaf is a beauty. Don't need to change the looks.

As Tony said, I would pay up to $10K more for doubling the capacity to 48kWh, or 5k more for a 35kWh, with essentially the same frame and size. A little more ride height would help persuade my wife to drive it though.,

 

[ElSupreme]

If it got a 100 mile real world range, in Atlanta weather I would get one in a heartbeat. Even if it meant giving my wife the Model S. I drive 75 mile days regularly, and with my speed 100 real world miles would be a perfect fit.

 

[essaunders]

EPA 150 would imply a doubling of capacity (up from EPA 73 I currently have). that would be huge. all of a sudden you are talking about two hour freeway trips being possible on a single charge - with reserve!

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

EPA 150 would imply a doubling of capacity (up from EPA 73 I currently have). that would be huge. all of a sudden you are talking about two hour freeway trips being possible on a single charge - with reserve!

And longer if their chargers get uprated and significantly more numerous.

 

[RobStark]

I think Leaf is a beauty. Don't need to change the looks.

As Tony said, I would pay up to $10K more for doubling the capacity to 48kWh, or 5k more for a 35kWh, with essentially the same frame and size. A little more ride height would help persuade my wife to drive it though.,

That is about the consensus. Nissan owners would be willing to pay ~$450/kWh for more battery capacity. Last I read Nissan cost is $750/kWh. Maybe if the expand capacity for a new longer range LEAF and an even more powerful Infinity EV they could drop the price down to make a 150 EPA mile LEAF profitably.

 

[constraint]

That is about the consensus. Nissan owners would be willing to pay ~$450/kWh for more battery capacity. Last I read Nissan cost is $750/kWh. Maybe if the expand capacity for a new longer range LEAF and an even more powerful Infinity EV they could drop the price down to make a 150 EPA mile LEAF profitably.

Thought i read a couple years ago that number was $384. Given that many people believe Tesla is getting cell prices below $250 per kwh, you have to assume that Nissan's battery is not going to be terribly more expensive then cell and BMS cost given there is no active cooling in the pack.

 

[RobStark]

Thought i read a couple years ago that number was $384. Given that many people believe Tesla is getting cell prices below $250 per kwh, you have to assume that Nissan's battery is not going to be terribly more expensive then cell and BMS cost given there is no active cooling in the pack.

Nissan has automotive specific batteries they manufacture themselves with some components they buy from suppliers.

Tesla buys decontented 18650. It is a generic Panasonic 18650 without the fire prevention technology because Tesla puts them in a fire prevention gel. So they are cheaper to make than 18650 in laptops.

Panasonic has much greater economies of scale than Nissan.

 

[100thMonkey]

Nissan has automotive specific batteries they manufacture themselves with some components they buy from suppliers.

Tesla buys decontented 18650. It is a generic Panasonic 18650 without the fire prevention technology because Tesla puts them in a fire prevention gel. So they are cheaper to make than 18650 in laptops.

Panasonic has much greater economies of scale than Nissan.

I believe Nissan started out at about $450 kWh, if memory serves, and that was 4 years ago, before the new US plant opened and they started making their own. surely the price has dropped with more volume and in house production... unfortunately the quality of Nissan's cells is apparently not capable of handling the lack of temperature management. Tesla's approach is winning out, big time. Nissan should add temperature management, drop CHAdeMO and pay in to Tesla's plug and network... they might have a fighting chance at keep the lower end of the market, sub E, otherwise, I'm afraid it's kind of game over for the Leaf in the next couple of years.

 

[RobStark]

I believe Nissan started out at about $450 kWh, if memory serves, and that was 4 years ago, before the new US plant opened and they started making their own. surely the price has dropped with more volume and in house production... unfortunately the quality of Nissan's cells is apparently not capable of handling the lack of temperature management. Tesla's approach is winning out, big time. Nissan should add temperature management, drop CHAdeMO and pay in to Tesla's plug and network... they might have a fighting chance at keep the lower end of the market, sub E, otherwise, I'm afraid it's kind of game over for the Leaf in the next couple of years.

According to Wikipedia that quotes autobloggreen and the Wall Street Journal the 24 kWh battery pack cost Nissan $18k to build as of May 2010 or $750 per kWh.

According to most press reports the 2013 LEAF $6400 price drop was due to a difference in content from the 2012 LEAF's low-end model . But a sizable portion of the price drop could be chalked up to the Leaf's production moving from Japan to Tennessee. About $3500 in shipping cost avoided. There was no talk of significantly lower production cost for the battery pack.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I believe Nissan started out at about $450 kWh, if memory serves, and that was 4 years ago, before the new US plant opened and they started making their own. surely the price has dropped with more volume and in house production... unfortunately the quality of Nissan's cells is apparently not capable of handling the lack of temperature management. Tesla's approach is winning out, big time. Nissan should add temperature management, drop CHAdeMO and pay in to Tesla's plug and network... they might have a fighting chance at keep the lower end of the market, sub E, otherwise, I'm afraid it's kind of game over for the Leaf in the next couple of years.

Nissan is planning to add a basic TMS to help deal with the extremes. I don't believe they'll see major cost improvements until they update their cells.

 

[Electroman]

Nissan is planning to add a basic TMS to help deal with the extremes..

Source please ?

All I heard was Nissan is coming up with a "hot" battery to withstand the heat, and is expected to hit production by mid summer this year. Nothing about better TMS

 

[TonyWilliams]

Nissan should add temperature management, drop CHAdeMO and pay in to Tesla's plug and network... they might have a fighting chance at keep the lower end of the market, sub E, otherwise, I'm afraid it's kind of game over for the Leaf in the next couple of years.

There's room in the market for a LEAF below the price point of Model E. Plus, they don't need to delete CHAdeMO (nor are they... It would be kind of dumb after installing hundred / thousands of CHAdeMO's around the world).

But they can put a Tesla plug right next to the CHAdeMO, and throw in the Tesla to J1772 adaptor that every model S has. Now, that would be a combination!

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Source please ?

All I heard was Nissan is coming up with a "hot" battery to withstand the heat, and is expected to hit production by mid summer this year. Nothing about better TMS

No, you're right, I heard it, but can't find anything on it now, I can only find references to statements abiut a more tolerant chemidtry.