Nissan launches hands-off ProPilot 2.0 On-Ramp to Off-Ramp (Rivals Navigate on Autopilot)

[Saghost]

Nissan to launch hands-off ProPilot 2.0 driver-assistance in Japan - Roadshow

So much for Tesla being 3+ years ahead.

Tesla built in October 2016 can now do the same thing a Nissan Built in October 2019 can hopefully do. 3 Years.

 

[electronblue]

Thanks. I just know what I have read about how some systems had issues. Glad to know if it is not an issue anymore.

Not sure what you are getting at. Tesla is not using a camera monitoring system so it's not the case that I am praising Tesla for doing it but criticizing others for doing the same thing.

In terms of Tesla's torque sensing, it works 100% for me. Once you learn the right motion, it is effortless. I dismiss the AP nag with one finger.

I’m getting at you being awfully dismissive of technological progress from others while also being dismissive of issues Tesla’s technology does have.

I mean, you dismiss all torque sensing issues because it works for you, but at the same time without any personal experience announce torque sensing is superior to eye monitoring because someone somewhere had an issue with the latter.

I can give you tons of people with issues with torque sensing... just look around TMC...

Keep an open mind.

 

[diplomat33]

I’m getting at you being awfully dismissive of technological progress from others while also being dismissive of issues Tesla’s technology does have.

I mean, you dismiss all torque sensing issues because it works for you, but at the same time without any personal experience announce torque sensing is superior to eye monitoring because someone somewhere had an issue with the latter.

I can give you tons of people with issues with torque sensing... just look around TMC...

Keep an open mind.

Sure, I will try to keep an open mind.

Let me try to be open minded: the camera monitoring system is a clever way of doing hands free driving. And if an auto maker has a really great version of it that works in all conditions, great!

My beef is not with the camera monitoring system. My beef is with the OP using Nissan's ProPilot 2 to take a cheap shot at Tesla. I don't think you can objectively say that Nissan's system is way ahead of Tesla. That's all. If the OP simply posted about what ProPilot 2 can do, I'd probably say it sounds like a cool driver assist.

 

[willow_hiller]

I think it's a matter of priorities.

Model 3s have interior facing cameras. They could start working on an attention detecting neural network if they thought it was a good way forward. Instead of spending time and effort on detecting attention, Tesla is spending time on getting FSD good enough for regulators to no longer need driver nags.

 

[diplomat33]

I’m getting at you being awfully dismissive of technological progress from others while also being dismissive of issues Tesla’s technology does have.

Just to add one more thing: I am not dismissive of other's tech progress. It's great that Nissan is developing a great driver assist, similar to NOA. I am dismissive of falsely characterizing other's tech progress as being way superior to Tesla when it is not. Big difference!

 

[tommie]

Navigate on Autopilot only works on divided limited highway just as this. They also have a separate system that works on any single lane roads similar to regular Autopilot.



Yeah its called a driver monitoring camera to make sure the driver is pay attention and also hasn't fallen asleep, allows you to be completely hands free unlike the stupid constant torque/wiggle of autopilot that fails regularly leading to drivers falling asleep, accidents and four deaths and counting.



There is the hands-on system and the hands-off system. similar to how there's regular autopilot that works everywhere and then NOA that works only on divided limited access highways.



Propilot 1.0 was first launched in japan in Serena and then the year after launched in the US. Same as NOA introduction which launched about 6+ months later in EU. It hasn't launched anywhere else from what i can recall. I might definitely be wrong on that.



Yeah. I don't see how these are negatives, this is great for a system that doesn't have rear facing or rearview cameras. Using only Mobileye's tri-focal forward facing cameras.

Tesla's 8 cameras versus Mobileye's 3 cameras (trifocal). Shows you the hold up has always been with the automakers not the actual tech provider (Mobileye)

"Navigate on Autopilot only works on divided limited highway just as this. They also have a separate system that works on any single lane roads similar to regular Autopilot."

Guess I've got some sort of unicorn, because my navigate on autopilot works fine on 2 lane, non divided highways. That's about all we have here on the North Coast.

 

[electronblue]

And if an auto maker has a really great version of it that works in all conditions, great!

Tesla’s torque sensing certainly doesn’t work great in all conditions, I’m not sure why we’d apply such a requirement.

Just to add one more thing: I am not dismissive of other's tech progress. It's great that Nissan is developing a great driver assist, similar to NOA. I am dismissive of falsely characterizing other's tech progress as being way superior to Tesla when it is not. Big difference!

My point was regarding your comparison of Tesla’s and Nissan’s driver monitoring techniques. I think you were awfully dismissive of it before even trying. Hands-free / nag-free is certainly a potential benefit not to be dismissed.

Model 3s have interior facing cameras. They could start working on an attention detecting neural network if they thought it was a good way forward. Instead of spending time and effort on detecting attention, Tesla is spending time on getting FSD good enough for regulators to no longer need driver nags.

Whereas others doing driver monitoring use infrared enhanced cameras pointed straight at the face of the driver, Tesla’s visual spectrum interior camera placed in the middle is not really optimal for such things. Also: no camera in Model S/X.

Everything is a matter of priorities of course. That is why traditional automakers too have a different path (different priorities) than Tesla when it comes to how they vet and choose which features to ship in their arsenal of options.

 

[hiroshiy]

The more L2, the better!!

日産プロパイロット2.0、ステアリング手放しの実現には高精度地図が不可欠だった (1/2)
Here's a bit more detailed article about ProPilot 2.0 - they use 3 cameras for front (trifocal), and four cameras are for 360 view monitor so they are not actively used I guess for highway driving purposes. 12 ultrasonics, and 5 radars, one in front, one each in each corner of the vehicle.
They rely on 3D detailed map, which will be updated online, a few times a year, and it is necessary. This means Skyline will be fully online if you choose ProPilot 2.0.

 

[diplomat33]

My point was regarding your comparison of Tesla’s and Nissan’s driver monitoring techniques. I think you were awfully dismissive of it before even trying. Hands-free / nag-free is certainly a potential benefit not to be dismissed.

Sorry if I did come across as too dismissive. That was not my intention. I've read stuff about the camera driver monitoring system that has made me question it's utility. But you are right that I should at least try it and not dismiss it out of hand just because I am used to Tesla's system. As I said before, it's a clever system. Certainly, if it worked well, I would probably love it.

 

[fmonera]

How does the Pro Pilot 2.0 system change lanes without rear facing cameras?

 

[cwerdna]

Also, Skyline is not available globally.

The Skyline (there are unfortunately numerous models) is sold in many countries outside Japan, just not necessarily with that specific name.

I believe the Skyline is aka Infiniti Q50 in the US.

Johan de Nysschen came to Infiniti and screwed up all the model naming and numbering. Skyline was the G35 and G37. He eventually made all cars Q's and SUV's QX's. It was somewhat sensible (e.g. I30, I35, G35, G37, FX35/FX45, Q45, etc.) At least the numbers corresponded to engine displacement w/o the decimal point, sorta like BMW was kinda/mostly doing.

 

[Saghost]

The more L2, the better!!

日産プロパイロット2.0、ステアリング手放しの実現には高精度地図が不可欠だった (1/2)
Here's a bit more detailed article about ProPilot 2.0 - they use 3 cameras for front (trifocal), and four cameras are for 360 view monitor so they are not actively used I guess for highway driving purposes. 12 ultrasonics, and 5 radars, one in front, one each in each corner of the vehicle.
They rely on 3D detailed map, which will be updated online, a few times a year, and it is necessary. This means Skyline will be fully online if you choose ProPilot 2.0.

This is starting to sound remarkably like Cadillac's system, with a couple extra functions enabled.

At least Nissan appears to have figured out the value of showing the driver what the car thinks the surrounding environment is, though.

 

[willow_hiller]

This is starting to sound remarkably like Cadillac's system, with a couple extra functions enabled.

At least Nissan appears to have figured out the value of showing the driver what the car thinks the surrounding environment is, though.

I would say definitely better than Super Cruise. Super Cruise requires lidar premapping and lidar equipment. Nissan is backing Tesla's idea of vision and radar.

 

[Saghost]

I would say definitely better than Super Cruise. Super Cruise requires lidar premapping and lidar equipment. Nissan is backing Tesla's idea of vision and radar.

I don't speak Japanese, so I'm relying on a Bing translation and the interpretation given in the post above, but Nissan appeared to make a point about needing 5 cm precision maps to guide around curves successfully, which they'd update a few times a year.

They didn't specify how they were getting those maps, but that's actually exactly why it sounds like an improved Supercruise to me - it only works on pre-mapped routes which have high precision maps generated by the company (and it has the driver attention camera, of course.)

 

[Bladerskb]

Nice try but no. This system appears to be more advanced because of the driver facing camera which allows true hands off in some cases but it is not years ahead to Tesla.

Who said it was years ahead? i said "so much for tesla being 3+ years ahead". Which is what you hear from Tesla fans.
However they ARE using a vision chip (eyeq4) that is proven to be 2+ years ahead of Tesla.

So Nissan's system requires hands on wheel for auto lane changes just like Tesla.

The point is that Tesla isn't 3+ years ahead as Tesla fans erroneously claim, and the whole mantra about "billions of miles of data". Nissan didn't need billions of miles of data to create this neither did mobileye to create the vision neural networks.

And this part:

As with all driver-assistance features like this, Nissan emphasizes that ProPilot 2.0 can only operate in certain, safe situations. For instance, it won't work around toll booths or exit ramps; the driver will be prompted to take over in those cases.

So again, it won't work on exit ramps?! NOA does work on exit tamps. NOA works on more roads and more situations and all without driver interventions.

Do NOA work on toll booths? The point is, how many people have died in the tens of millions of traditional automakers ADAS system? ZERO. How many people have died in Propilot 1.0 although Nissan has it in over 400k cars? ZERO. How many people will die in Pro-pilot 2.0? Probably Zero. Exactly Nissan unlike Tesla will be responsible. Tesla doesn't care how many people die on the road to FSD which is why they let their system activate anywhere.

But besides, their regular hands on propilot DOES work on exit ramps. But this new propilot alerts you before you reach the exit ramp. Also the development prototype this is based off of works both on exit ramps and toll booths. This is a safety measure especially by the fact they are not using side and rear looking cameras.

 

[Bladerskb]

My beef is not with the camera monitoring system. My beef is with the OP using Nissan's ProPilot 2 to take a cheap shot at Tesla. I don't think you can objectively say that Nissan's system is way ahead of Tesla. That's all. If the OP simply posted about what ProPilot 2 can do, I'd probably say it sounds like a cool driver assist.

Tesla Autopilot is JUST a cool driver assist, nothing more nothing less.

 

[TMThree]

They don't work or won't work well. The system has to see your eyes.

I know what I'm wearing!

 

[diplomat33]

Who said it was years ahead? i said "so much for tesla being 3+ years ahead". Which is what you hear from Tesla fans. However they ARE using a vision chip (eyeq4) that is proven to be 2+ years ahead of Tesla.

In terms of this specific comparison of NOA v ProPilot 2, Tesla is at least 6 months ahead of Nissan. NOA without confirmation was released in March and this ProPilot 2 is being released in the Fall, roughly 6 months later. And if Tesla releases coast to coast FSD this Fall around the same time as ProPilot 2 is released, then Tesla's lead will widen. I'm just giving you the dates of when each comparable system was released.

EyeQ4 is years ahead of AP2 but not AP3. Tesla has shown in their Autonomy Investor Day, that they have a vision neural network on AP3 now that is mostly caught up with the others. And you will see that when Tesla deploys their full vision NN on AP3.

The point is that Tesla isn't 3+ years ahead as Tesla fans erroneously claim, and the whole mantra about "billions of miles of data". Nissan didn't need billions of miles of data to create this neither did mobileye to create the vision neural networks.

The billion of miles of data was never a magic pill that was going to instantly give Tesla FSD before everybody else. But Tesla's billions of miles of data did absolutely help Tesla develop their vision neural net. Remember that Tesla started late to the party when it comes to FSD. Tesla's billions of miles of data did allow Tesla to catch up by allowing Tesla to do the same work in less time than it took others.

Do NOA work on toll booths?

No, NOA does not work with toll booths which is why I only mentioned exit ramps.

The point is, how many people have died in the tens of millions of traditional automakers ADAS system? ZERO. How many people have died in Propilot 1.0 although Nissan has it in over 400k cars? ZERO. How many people will die in Pro-pilot 2.0? Probably Zero. Exactly Nissan unlike Tesla will be responsible. Tesla doesn't care how many people die on the road to FSD which is why they let their system activate anywhere.

Now, I am afraid your bias is really showing. The auto makers that have given us cars with tens of thousands of deaths per year, somehow have a flawless safety record but the small number of people who have died in a Tesla (even though AP was not to blame) somehow is proof that Tesla wants people to die??? Come on!

Tesla does care about safety which is why they release safety features via OTA update, and build 5 star safety rated vehicles. Implying that they don't care and are deliberately putting out unsafe systems is flat out slanderous and libelous.

But besides, their regular hands on propilot DOES work on exit ramps. But this new propilot alerts you before you reach the exit ramp. Also the development prototype this is based off of works both on exit ramps and toll booths. This is a safety measure especially by the fact they are not using side and rear looking cameras.

Funny how when Nissan makes the driver hold the wheel during a lane change or an exit ramp, it's a brilliant safety feature but when Tesla makes the driver hold the wheel, it's a poorly constructed nag that is actually unsafe.

Again, I think your bias is showing. When Tesla releases NOA months before any other auto maker and requires hands on wheel for safety, you ridicule Tesla. When Nissan releases their version of NOA which is almost identical, except for the camera monitoring system, somehow, it's brilliant, safe, and proof of how great the other auto makers are at ADAS and FSD. You never give credit for Tesla, except in sarcastic tones and you are constantly showing off videos and praising how great other auto makers' ADAS are, even though their system are no better than Tesla's.

It's fun debating this with you. But we are both biased. Sure, I am a Tesla fan. I admit it. But you are clearly biased against Tesla.

 

[rowdy]

How does the Pro Pilot 2.0 system change lanes without rear facing cameras?

Probably uses the rear facing radars.

EyeQ5 now sampling. Up to 18 cameras with additional support for Radar/Lidar for redundancy. Starting to think Tesla should've just stuck with Mobileye and their (realistic) timeline.

 

[fmonera]

Probably uses the rear facing radars.

Source?

EyeQ5 now sampling. Up to 18 cameras with additional support for Radar/Lidar for redundancy. Starting to think Tesla should've just stuck with Mobileye and their (realistic) timeline.

Mobileye EyeQ5 is well positioned in the demo race towards full autonomy, but it is still very bad in the real released features implemented in available to buy vehicles.

I prefer Tesla where it is today, than promising full autonomy on powerpoint demos as it is Mobileye nowadays.

Anyway, I doubt Nissan system is using EyeQ5 but don't have the details.