Nissan Says Long-Range EV Unnecessary

[ipdamages]

I completely agree, drees. At that range, every extra mile would be worth a lot, as will more charging infrastructure (though the greater range will IMO be much more valuable as it sucks to be sitting at some strip mall in Vista or San Onofre or Long Beach waiting to charge to finish an SD-LA trip). People don't want that inconvenience. Early adopters on this board are far more tolerant of that than those not posting here.

As I wrote, consistent with your previous post, if Nissan could get the LEAF up to 125-150 ideal miles on the day it was new, even if it were for $5K-$10K more, that would surely snag more customers. But where would one put the required additional pack for the doubling of the range? Again, if you are willing to make the car 77.3" wide by 196.0" long (Model S), instead of its current dimensions of 69.7" x 175.0", and you are willing to price the car at $30K more, then sure - problem solved. But then the car is out of reach in price for many, and in size. And the fact that BMW and Audi and others have ended up with ranges of under 100 is telling. It isn't like Carlos and co. didn't know about range anxiety.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Gen III. Given that Elon has basically said that the battery technology is there to improve on range efficiency for a given battery size from Model S, even if Tesla doesn't do it, others will. And that will change the value proposition and practicality in a big way.

 

[Dave EV]

Yeah, not a ton of room left for batteries without higher density cells. There is a bit of room behind the rear seats on the '13 where the on board charger used to be, and there's a decent amount of room under the trunk - there's enough room there for a spare tire which is fitted for other markets.

 

[constraint]

Would i pay more money for more range? Absolutely but the economics and usability still have to be a major consideration before I purchase.

The leaf only has 70 miles or range when new. Due to the fact that it essentially ignores thermal management many people in southern states see the range go down to 50-55 miles after the first year. I am sorry but that is not even enough range to go to work in back, let alone a 1 way trip to visit my parents.

While i am not saying 85kwh is the answer, having a bigger pack (with thermal management) allows more flexibility and shallower cycles. I would never purchase a car when even with quick charging i would have to stop every 30 minutes on the freeway to charge for 20 minutes. With the bigger packs I would be willing on my few large trips that i do to stop for a long charge provided i could go at least a couple hours without stopping.

 

[Kipernicus]

The sweet spot hasn't been found yet. Toyota had a shot with the Rav4 and its 40-ish kWh battery from Tesla, but they priced it too high and somehow the EPA rating came in rather low at 103 miles. The size and usefulness was right, but at $50k (pre-rebate) consumers didn't bite.

 

[apacheguy]

As a Tesla and LEAF owner, I can say there is absolutely a need for longer range EVs (like the Model S). In fact, I find myself driving the Model S much more often than the LEAF because it simply can't deliver real world range. Not sure Mark Perry knows what he's talking about.

 

[gregincal]

But where would one put the required additional pack for the doubling of the range? Again, if you are willing to make the car 77.3" wide by 196.0" long (Model S), instead of its current dimensions of 69.7" x 175.0", and you are willing to price the car at $30K more, then sure - problem solved. But then the car is out of reach in price for many, and in size.

It's the Model S design that allows for more batteries, not just the size. Make the Model S with the dimensions of the Leaf, and the skateboard size gets reduced by less than 25% and you still have room for 60kWh worth of batteries.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yeah, not a ton of room left for batteries without higher density cells. There is a bit of room behind the rear seats on the '13 where the on board charger used to be, and there's a decent amount of room under the trunk - there's enough room there for a spare tire which is fitted for other markets.

Leaf's batteries aren't particularly high density even by current standards. Nissan will switch to NMC chemistry for the next gen and it should double their current density. By then hopefully they offer some capacity options.

 

[ipdamages]

It's the Model S design that allows for more batteries, not just the size. Make the Model S with the dimensions of the Leaf, and the skateboard size gets reduced by less than 25% and you still have room for 60kWh worth of batteries.

yes, if you agree to raise the LEAF by 6" so you can fit a skateboard battery underneath it, then you can fit a big battery in there. in fact, you may be able to fit a really big battery in there since you could use the existing LEAF battery space AND the skateboard underneath. but raising the LEAF 6" is by definition not keeping it the same size. and it isn't as if you can just use the bottom 6" of space without displacing the things that are currently there. for example, you can't raise the seats by 6" and keep the same leg room unless you raise the windshield by 6".

Would i pay more money for more range? Absolutely but the economics and usability still have to be a major consideration before I purchase.

The leaf only has 70 miles or range when new. Due to the fact that it essentially ignores thermal management many people in southern states see the range go down to 50-55 miles after the first year. I am sorry but that is not even enough range to go to work in back, let alone a 1 way trip to visit my parents.

While i am not saying 85kwh is the answer, having a bigger pack (with thermal management) allows more flexibility and shallower cycles. I would never purchase a car when even with quick charging i would have to stop every 30 minutes on the freeway to charge for 20 minutes. With the bigger packs I would be willing on my few large trips that i do to stop for a long charge provided i could go at least a couple hours without stopping.

i am with you. i would have no use for a car that will have 50 miles of range after one year of use. but apparently other people do want such a car, even with its existing thermal management (or they are being duped), as evidenced by the sales figures. if people could have a LEAF with more range for $5K more, i think the current LEAF would be in big trouble. but that car isn't available, so we are left to deduce from the sales that are actually happening, and people are buying the LEAF, so apparently for some people the tradeoff of the short range (and current thermal management) for the $50K price difference up to the model S with a 60 kWh pack is worth it.

As a Tesla and LEAF owner, I can say there is absolutely a need for longer range EVs (like the Model S). In fact, I find myself driving the Model S much more often than the LEAF because it simply can't deliver real world range. Not sure Mark Perry knows what he's talking about.

again, as a guy who can afford to own both a model S and a LEAF, of course you demand more range. you apparently can also house multiple cars. some people can't afford both cars, or house both, or even fit a car as large as the model S in their home parking spot. nobody is suggesting that more range is not preferable, and in many cases necessary. as ferris bueller put it, "it is so choice. if you have the means, i highly recommend picking one up." the other part of the quote that is sometimes not referenced is the "but if you don't have the means or space to park a model S, or just don't like driving a car that is 1" wider and 10" longer than a range rover sport, i highly recommend the nissan LEAF, even with its short range, not-very-attractive looks, and sub-optimal thermal management."

 

[stopcrazypp]

yes, if you agree to raise the LEAF by 6" so you can fit a skateboard battery underneath it, then you can fit a big battery in there. in fact, you may be able to fit a really big battery in there since you could use the existing LEAF battery space AND the skateboard underneath. but raising the LEAF 6" is by definition not keeping it the same size. and it isn't as if you can just use the bottom 6" of space without displacing the things that are currently there. for example, you can't raise the seats by 6" and keep the same leg room unless you raise the windshield by 6".

The Model S battery pack is only 4 inches thick (101.6mm), not six inches (quick google will confirm this). The pack is that thin because the module itself is only a couple mm thicker than the height of the cells inside (65mm).
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13121-Inside-the-Tesla-battery-pack

The Leaf uses a pack with 303x223x35 mm modules. At the thinnest point in the middle where two modules are stacked flat, it is at least 70mm thick just from the modules alone (roughly the same thickness of one Tesla module). In the front, under the front seats, 4 modules are stacked flat giving 140mm, rear seat area has 24 modules put on their width, giving 223mm.

So you are only adding at most 30mm (1 inch) of height to the middle part, but the number might actually be close to zero since my previous math only included modules and not the pack enclosure (which exists for both cars). And you actually save a lot of thickness on the other parts under the seats.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Nissan_Leaf_battery_pack_DC_03_2011_1629.jpg
http://www.eco-aesc-lb.com/en/product.html

But I think gregincal is not talking about shoehorning a Model S skateboard battery on a Leaf chassis. He is saying if you just shrink the dimensions of the Model S (less wide, shorter wheelbase, same height), it can still provide 60kWh of capacity. Keep in mind that at 61", the Leaf is actually taller than the Model S at 56.5".

Model S wheel base is 116.5", width is 77.3". Leaf wheelbase is 106.3", width 69.7". So a Model S pack in a Leaf sized vehicle has 82.3% of the space for the pack, 85kWh * 82.3% = 70kWh.

 

[ipdamages]

But I think gregincal is not talking about shoehorning a Model S skateboard battery on a Leaf chassis. He is saying if you just shrink the dimensions of the Model S (less wide, shorter wheelbase, same height), it can still provide 60kWh of capacity. Keep in mind that at 61", the Leaf is actually taller than the Model S at 56.5".

Model S wheel base is 116.5", width is 77.3". Leaf wheelbase is 106.3", width 69.7". So a Model S pack in a Leaf sized vehicle has 82.3% of the space for the pack, 85kWh * 82.3% = 70kWh.

Re-reading this, I agree with you that that was the intention of greg's post. But of course, that notion - shrink the Model S to be the size of a 3-series BMW or a LEAF, is Gen 3. Tesla is a bit delayed compared to the earlier-announced timeframe, but they appear to still be on that path. And in 3-4 years that car will be available. It will likely still cost twice what a LEAF costs (no doubt in part due to the increased battery costs), but I think there is a consensus that if the Gen 3 happens and offers the previously-unavailable combination of 3-series size, 150-200 mile range, attractive looks, at least modest storage, and a $40K price tag (or even a bit more, depending on options and range), it will be a big hit.

But today that car isn't available, and there are still many, many hurdles to clear to make that dream a reality. So we are left with the available options. And in that context, people continue to buy the LEAF, even with its limitations and imperfections - which are deal-killers for most everyone on this board.

In addition, it isn't clear to me who else will be able to produce a BEV with a skateboard. Perusal of the USPTO website shows that Tesla is the assignee on 106 US patents, many of which cover battery/skateboard technology. Here are a few:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=6&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=%22tesla+motors%22.ASNM.&OS=AN/%22tesla+motors%22&RS=AN/%22tesla+motors%22

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=37&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=%22tesla+motors%22.ASNM.&OS=AN/%22tesla+motors%22&RS=AN/%22tesla+motors%22

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=31&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=%22tesla+motors%22.ASNM.&OS=AN/%22tesla+motors%22&RS=AN/%22tesla+motors%22

And here is the list of the 106 US patents.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=tesla+motors&FIELD1=ASNM&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=PTXT

So offering larger range options on a small BEV looks to be an option for Tesla. CODA also had better range. But it isn't clear to me that it is a very easy thing for others to accomplish, as evidenced by the fact that they haven't, and haven't even shown a concept car that offers these features at a reasonable price (recognizing that the Concept One offers many of my criteria, except maybe storage, and of course price).

As regards your calculation of the added height of a skateboard design compared to a similar non-skateboard vehicle, I don't have reason to dispute your calcs, except that there may need to be a little space around the battery, so maybe it's a bit over 4". But more importantly, consistent with your point, when you design a car from the skateboard up, there is some flexibility, which I hope we will see employed in the design of the Roadster 3.0 so as to keep it low to the ground like a proper supercar! Call it a skateboard with contouring, and maybe a kicktail.

 

[CantaMia Ron]

I have a 2013 Nissan Leaf and when the lease is up in 2 year's i will get my Tesla so
I can make over the limit of 98 mile max on the leaf.

 

[agentsmith1612]

I think the problem why Nissan didn't take in a thermal management for the battery is on the first point the price.
It costs money and weight to put a thermal management in.

But take a look at the battery geometry.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Nissan_Leaf_battery_pack_DC_03_2011_1629.jpg

Nissan used flat Li-Ion pack and stacked them together on the larger side. In this construction you will have a very big problem to take in a thermal management.

GM makes it in another way. They put the cells in the same way together like Nissan but situate the cell packs in one row.
http://gm-volt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/volt-battery-pack-open.jpg
Along the cell row you can cool and heat the cells. But only if you have an "temperature cell" between the cells and this is the case in the Volt battery.

I don't know how Tesla implemented the thermal management, can someone report it here?

 

[stopcrazypp]

GM makes it in another way. They put the cells in the same way together like Nissan but situate the cell packs in one row.
http://gm-volt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/volt-battery-pack-open.jpg
Along the cell row you can cool and heat the cells. But only if you have an "temperature cell" between the cells and this is the case in the Volt battery.

In the Leaf case, what you are looking at in those pictures are modules, not cells. There are 4 cells per module.
http://www.eco-aesc-lb.com/en/product.html
The rear seat area of the Leaf's battery pack also has its modules arranged in a row similar to the Volt. So similar coolant routing can be used there. As for the other stacks in the middle or front, there are 2 or 4 module stacks, so cooling fins can be used between those, even though routing will be slightly more complicated.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Nissan_Leaf_battery_pack_DC_03_2011_1629.jpg

I don't know how Tesla implemented the thermal management, can someone report it here?

Tesla has coolant running through every single cylindrical cell inside each module (not just between modules).
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13121-Inside-the-Tesla-battery-pack

 

[agentsmith1612]

In the Leaf case, what you are looking at in those pictures are modules, not cells. There are 4 cells per module.
http://www.eco-aesc-lb.com/en/product.html
The rear seat area of the Leaf's battery pack also has its modules arranged in a row similar to the Volt. So similar coolant routing can be used there. As for the other stacks in the middle or front, there are 2 or 4 module stacks, so cooling fins can be used between those, even though routing will be slightly more complicated.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Nissan_Leaf_battery_pack_DC_03_2011_1629.jpg


Tesla has coolant running through every single cylindrical cell inside each module (not just between modules).
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13121-Inside-the-Tesla-battery-pack

Sorry for my mistake between "cells" and "modules". You are right, it can be possible, but only if you add a cooling module between each module, like in the Volt.
There the arrangement is "Li-Ion module - cooling module - Li-Ion Module- cooling module- ......." I think you get the idea. This is the reason why the Volt battery is so large in regard to the capacity ("just" 16kwH).