No car can be perfect

[Thomas Edison]

So why does everyone expect the model 3 to be? I just don't get it.

 

[snakeopus121]

You are absolutely correct

\

 

[D3xDt3Reaction]

So why does everyone expect the model 3 to be? I just don't get it.

What’s your measure of “goodness”? That is, what does the theoretical perfect car even look like?

The Model 3 is absolutely guaranteed to never require an iota of gasoline. In that sense it is perfect.

 

[Knightshade]

I think it's more the weirdness of Tesla as not-really-a-car-company getting so many amazing things into the car, but then seeming to step on their you-know-what with relatively basic stuff other cars have had for years now.

Like autopilot is fantastic- but the smartphone/car display interaction is pretty crap compared to like a mid-grade GM rental car.

Some of the dumb stuff they're going to eventually fix with OTA updates (like the people in the back being unable to adjust their own seat heaters... the lack of blind spot warning, etc...) but it's just a bunch of "Wow this thing is like something from Star Trek...so how is it missing stuff a Corolla did 5 years ago?"

 

[D3xDt3Reaction]

like the people in the back being unable to adjust their own seat heaters...

All a matter of perspective... If it’s warm outside and you’re annoyed with one of the people in the back seat, that could actually be a feature.

 

[Sportstick]

So why does everyone expect the model 3 to be? I just don't get it.

Surely, you cannot be serious. As one who very much wanted to have a M3, with a 1.5 year old deposit, but then became more and more disenchanted as more issues were discovered, I don't recall reading anyone here who expected perfection. But, the list of design and manufacturing problems, revealing a markedly inadequate vehicle development program at Tesla, rendering this car as less than a reasonable risk of $50k. Just go back and read the variety of significant problems that actual owners have experienced, far beyond the worst of most traditional automakers in this decade, and realize that those of us who bailed out were not looking for "perfection"...we were hoping for "acceptable" for a first year new program. I haven't had the number or variety of problems in my last dozen cars that have shown up just in the Model 3 so far. I'm still a BEV intender, but Tesla has a long way to go before they can demonstrate building high quality, high volume vehicles. I'm hanging around here to monitor, in case this does turn around over the time it takes my current lease to expire, even if it means being willing to accept the overweight body structure. Let's see how much time goes by without any new program-wide problems cropping up.

 

[Runt8]

Surely, you cannot be serious. As one who very much wanted to have a M3, with a 1.5 year old deposit, but then became more and more disenchanted as more issues were discovered, I don't recall reading anyone here who expected perfection. But, the list of design and manufacturing problems, revealing a markedly inadequate vehicle development program at Tesla, rendering this car as less than a reasonable risk of $50k. Just go back and read the variety of significant problems that actual owners have experienced, far beyond the worst of most traditional automakers in this decade, and realize that those of us who bailed out were not looking for "perfection"...we were hoping for "acceptable" for a first year new program. I haven't had the number or variety of problems in my last dozen cars that have shown up just in the Model 3 so far. I'm still a BEV intender, but Tesla has a long way to go before they can demonstrate building high quality, high volume vehicles. I'm hanging around here to monitor, in case this does turn around over the time it takes my current lease to expire, even if it means being willing to accept the overweight body structure. Let's see how much time goes by without any new program-wide problems cropping up.

You're the reason this thread exists...

 

[03DSG]

Surely, you cannot be serious. As one who very much wanted to have a M3, with a 1.5 year old deposit, but then became more and more disenchanted as more issues were discovered, I don't recall reading anyone here who expected perfection. But, the list of design and manufacturing problems, revealing a markedly inadequate vehicle development program at Tesla, rendering this car as less than a reasonable risk of $50k. Just go back and read the variety of significant problems that actual owners have experienced, far beyond the worst of most traditional automakers in this decade, and realize that those of us who bailed out were not looking for "perfection"...we were hoping for "acceptable" for a first year new program. I haven't had the number or variety of problems in my last dozen cars that have shown up just in the Model 3 so far. I'm still a BEV intender, but Tesla has a long way to go before they can demonstrate building high quality, high volume vehicles. I'm hanging around here to monitor, in case this does turn around over the time it takes my current lease to expire, even if it means being willing to accept the overweight body structure. Let's see how much time goes by without any new program-wide problems cropping up.

The overweight body structure on Model 3 was by design. Tesla made the Model 3 battery much lighter by not encasing the sides. This helps tremendously with the logistics of manufacturing the batteries in the Giga, shipping them to Fremont and getting the battery to the chassis mating point. Body in white heavier, battery lighter. Same battery protection with manufacturing and cost benefits:

What Makes The Tesla Model 3 Battery Pack So Light?

 

[gpxl]

I think it's more the weirdness of Tesla as not-really-a-car-company getting so many amazing things into the car, but then seeming to step on their you-know-what with relatively basic stuff other cars have"

This is on the nose. Tesla got so much right that the missing features stick out a lot more, especially when the hardware is in place. I believe it’s just a matter of the software catching up which I’m confident is just a matter of time.

 

[snakeopus121]

Look --- Tesla decided to jump into an industry with established giants: Ford, Toyota, Honda, BMW, Audi, etc

This is the territory of the giants

Tesla made big claims, and criticized the giants......Elon said he would beat them at their own game

Are we, the consumer, expected to measure Tesla's performance on a different scale?

It's not like Tesla is a non-profit, charity organization.....Tesla's valuation is near/same to General Motors, and Elon Musk is a billionaire....

Let us not pretend there is a moral/ethical factor in the equation --- Tesla will only deliver you a car if you pay a very hefty fee (when compared to the competitors)

This has always been, and will always be, about the money

I have no problem with this --- but at the same time --- I will measure Telsa's products on the same scale as its competition --- which is Ford, Toyota, Honda, Audi, BMW, etc

No one gave Hyundai or KIA the benefit of the doubt --- they toughed it out and made it work --- and now look at them!!

 

[Shock-On-T]

Surely, you cannot be serious. As one who very much wanted to have a M3, with a 1.5 year old deposit, but then became more and more disenchanted as more issues were discovered, I don't recall reading anyone here who expected perfection. But, the list of design and manufacturing problems, revealing a markedly inadequate vehicle development program at Tesla, rendering this car as less than a reasonable risk of $50k. Just go back and read the variety of significant problems that actual owners have experienced, far beyond the worst of most traditional automakers in this decade, and realize that those of us who bailed out were not looking for "perfection"...we were hoping for "acceptable" for a first year new program. I haven't had the number or variety of problems in my last dozen cars that have shown up just in the Model 3 so far. I'm still a BEV intender, but Tesla has a long way to go before they can demonstrate building high quality, high volume vehicles. I'm hanging around here to monitor, in case this does turn around over the time it takes my current lease to expire, even if it means being willing to accept the overweight body structure. Let's see how much time goes by without any new program-wide problems cropping up.

You made the mistake of spending too much time on forums.
If you'd never heard of the internet you'd be driving your own M3 right now, and would probably never have had any of the problems you've read about.

 

[snakeopus121]

You made the mistake of spending too much time on forums.
If you'd never heard of the internet you'd be driving your own M3 right now, and would probably never have had any of the problems you've read about.

Ignorance is bliss, aint' it?

The Communist Chinese are fans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall

 

[Shock-On-T]

Ignorance is bliss, aint' it?

99% of the time

 

[snakeopus121]

99% of the time

Ahhh you beat me before I edited my post

 

[Lanzer]

So why does everyone expect the model 3 to be? I just don't get it.

Because it's so much fun making fun of the underdog!

On a serious note, one of the issues here is that everyone see Tesla differently.

There are many of us as consumers who expect their hard earned dollars to reflect the best value possible. It's completely reasonable and logical thinking. Why spend money to buy an inferior product or spend money on a product that has problems? There are so many choices out there, it's hard to settle for imperfection these days.

Meanwhile, there are some take to heart Tesla's mission statement, which is "to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport". To see Tesla's influence on the auto industry is a sign of the company achieving its goal, and there are many who drive a Tesla with that mentality in mind first and foremost. Those who think that way often carry the early adopter mentality which expect imperfections and see it as part of the whole package.

Then there are simple nerds who just want the latest tech toys. Drooling over bleeding edge technologies and debugging features as beta testers is often seen as a privilege for some. I think we're all a little bit of everything, but I think I lean much more strongly on the nerdy side.

Although speaking objectively, Consumer Report now recommend the Model 3 after the recent OTA update. So their opinion should mean something. Although no fact can deal with the insane amount of press that Tesla attracts. All the hype and headlines had made the Model 3 a unicorn way before we got our hands on it.

 

[Sportstick]

You made the mistake of spending too much time on forums.
If you'd never heard of the internet you'd be driving your own M3 right now, and would probably never have had any of the problems you've read about.

Likely not. Once I saw the vehicle on display at the Las Vegas showroom, I knew the program was not ready for volume production. As discussed in an earlier thread, the build flaws on that display vehicle were apparent. Had I gone ahead anyway, the chances are just as good I'd have been one of those who have experienced the variety of issues we've read here.

You're the reason this thread exists...

I'm honored, but I think you grant me too much power. More likely, the amatuer debate tactic of overstating the opponent's position ("expecting perfection") as a straw man to then "reasonably" knock down was looking for an opportunity to make a meaningless point. In the ~2 years I've been here, I found no one expecting perfection...just reasonable first year quality...and that has not appeared in volume to this point. I hope for future improvement, while keeping in mind that humans don't achieve "perfection"....just varying degrees of a job well-done.

The overweight body structure on Model 3 was by design.

Nonsense. If you ask a competent engineer if the glass is half-full or half-empty, they will point out that the glass was twice the size it needed to be. No skilled engineer makes anything "overweight...by design". The use of sub-panels welded together was more common in the last century and has been dismissed by many as inefficient and causing excess weight for no functional benefit.

I really was hoping for success and to be a M3 owner at this point. Despite my concerns from 30 years in this industry, I was optimistic based on reviews of the Model S...apparently too optimistic. Doesn't mean there aren't many great things about M3. Unfortunately, as relative amateurs in the industry, Tesla took too many shortcuts in vehicle development and it's showing in this year's build. One can romanticize Elon sleeping in the plant as much as one wishes, but that level of desperation just does not happen if a program is anywhere near to being in control. I've been through enough vehicle launches to know how this goes, and this one has not gone well. With lessons learned, I expect better from them next time and I will be back to reconsider versus other BEVs when I'm ready to buy/lease again.

 

[Shock-On-T]

Likely not. Once I saw the vehicle on display at the Las Vegas showroom, I knew the program was not ready for volume production. As discussed in an earlier thread, the build flaws on that display vehicle were apparent. Had I gone ahead anyway, the chances are just as good I'd have been one of those who have experienced the variety of issues we've read here.



I'm honored, but I think you grant me too much power. More likely, the amatuer debate tactic of overstating the opponent's position ("expecting perfection") as a straw man to then "reasonably" knock down was looking for an opportunity to make a meaningless point. In the ~2 years I've been here, I found no one expecting perfection...just reasonable first year quality...and that has not appeared in volume to this point. I hope for future improvement, while keeping in mind that humans don't achieve "perfection"....just varying degrees of a job well-done.



Nonsense. If you ask a competent engineer if the glass is half-full or half-empty, they will point out that the glass was twice the size it needed to be. No skilled engineer makes anything "overweight...by design". The use of sub-panels welded together was more common in the last century and has been dismissed by many as inefficient and causing excess weight for no functional benefit.

I really was hoping for success and to be a M3 owner at this point. Despite my concerns from 30 years in this industry, I was optimistic based on reviews of the Model S...apparently too optimistic. Doesn't mean there aren't many great things about M3. Unfortunately, as relative amateurs in the industry, Tesla took too many shortcuts in vehicle development and it's showing in this year's build. One can romanticize Elon sleeping in the plant as much as one wishes, but that level of desperation just does not happen if a program is anywhere near to being in control. I've been through enough vehicle launches to know how this goes, and this one has not gone well. With lessons learned, I expect better from them next time and I will be back to reconsider versus other BEVs when I'm ready to buy/lease again.

I guarantee that whatever you buy instead of the Model 3 will be boring in comparison.
Youll be driving a boring car, but hey! No panel gaps!

 

[Sportstick]

I guarantee that whatever you buy instead of the Model 3 will be boring in comparison.
Youll be driving a boring car, but hey! No panel gaps!

LOL....I'm getting by meanwhile with another 3 Series....at least it has a "3" in it meanwhile! (6 months old...no issues to report)

 

[Shock-On-T]

LOL....I'm getting by meanwhile with another 3 Series....at least it has a "3" in it meanwhile! (6 months old...no issues to report)

You must embrace the risk, grasshopper. Life is too short!

 

[ForeverFree]

Likely not. Once I saw the vehicle on display at the Las Vegas showroom, I knew the program was not ready for volume production. As discussed in an earlier thread, the build flaws on that display vehicle were apparent. Had I gone ahead anyway, the chances are just as good I'd have been one of those who have experienced the variety of issues we've read here.



I'm honored, but I think you grant me too much power. More likely, the amatuer debate tactic of overstating the opponent's position ("expecting perfection") as a straw man to then "reasonably" knock down was looking for an opportunity to make a meaningless point. In the ~2 years I've been here, I found no one expecting perfection...just reasonable first year quality...and that has not appeared in volume to this point. I hope for future improvement, while keeping in mind that humans don't achieve "perfection"....just varying degrees of a job well-done.



Nonsense. If you ask a competent engineer if the glass is half-full or half-empty, they will point out that the glass was twice the size it needed to be. No skilled engineer makes anything "overweight...by design". The use of sub-panels welded together was more common in the last century and has been dismissed by many as inefficient and causing excess weight for no functional benefit.

I really was hoping for success and to be a M3 owner at this point. Despite my concerns from 30 years in this industry, I was optimistic based on reviews of the Model S...apparently too optimistic. Doesn't mean there aren't many great things about M3. Unfortunately, as relative amateurs in the industry, Tesla took too many shortcuts in vehicle development and it's showing in this year's build. One can romanticize Elon sleeping in the plant as much as one wishes, but that level of desperation just does not happen if a program is anywhere near to being in control. I've been through enough vehicle launches to know how this goes, and this one has not gone well. With lessons learned, I expect better from them next time and I will be back to reconsider versus other BEVs when I'm ready to buy/lease again.

All well reasoned.

However, I think you'd do yourself a service to drive a Model 3. Having just returned from a 600-mile road trip, I can tell you that the car is a revelation ... even to someone who's driven a Model S for three years. Efficiency, range and Supercharging speed are off the charts. Handling and driving enjoyment top any of the other cars I've owned (Toyota Supra, Mitsu 3000GT VR4, BMW 330xi, Audi S4 and S5). Even acceleration, although not Model S make-you-woozy, still comfortably meets or beats the aforementioned sports sedans.

Pain points? A few bleeding-edge-adopter, lack-of-features chuckles (we were VIN 22xx last December) ... followed by enjoyment as those features were added OTA: FM radio, scheduled charging, heated seats, auto-dim headlights, rain-sensing wipers, improved audio source switching, etc. Plus, gratis suspension upgrade ... with gratis Model S loaner.

As existing owners, we rather enjoyed de facto beta tester status ... fully disclosed by Tesla from the start, not forced upon us, and not imposed upon non-owners. Since then, Autopilot drive assist has continued to evolve, a braking gremlin has been fixed via OTA, and the early-stage UI has continued to improve. The product on offer now is certainly non-beta, 80-90% refined, yet with plenty of remaining upside ... which will be realized. Heck, our three-year-old Model S just received Model 3's new-generation nav system, complete with mellowest valium-voiced nav lady that you'll ever encounter.

The "needlessly-heavy" frame? It seems to be saving lives right and left. A Seattle-area family just walked away from an accident that well might have maimed or killed them.

If you've maintained an open mind on this, I have an offer for you which may change it. In a few weeks, we're heading up to Park City from LA. We may take our S -- which is the ultimate, gear-swallowing, air-suspensioned road trip car. Odds are, though, that we'll opt for the 3, with its superior range, efficiency, charging speed ... and mountain road fun factor.

If so, we'd be happy to arrange a meeting and a drive. I'm willing to bet that a few minutes in the canyons will open your eyes. It's a stellar car; I'd hate to see you miss out on the fun!