No EV company will deploy their own charging network

[hill]

Actually, both Nissan and Kia Hyundai have installed CHAdeMO DC quick chargers at their dealerships - which are typically close to freeways, making them somewhat convenient. And iirc, Mitsubishi was one of the very first to get they're DC quick Chargers installed at their corporate headquarters around Cypress California. So I suspect they'll be putting in a lot more once they get the plug-in Outlander here in the US. It's a very popular model in much of Europe and Asia. Moreover in Japan Toyota's new plug-in, the prime, is DC quick charger enabled & a few dealerships there have installed them. So it might be more accurate to say that it's GM that's dropping the ball with DC quick Chargers.
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[mikevbf]

Yes, Tesla has the significant head start in infrastructure. But they are not the only ones making plans:
5 major automakers join forces to deploy 400 ultra-fast (350 kW) charging stations for electric vehicles in Europe

I wonder why no other automotive company has chosen to design their vehicles to use the super charger network. Elon Musk has said in the past that Tesla would allow this for fair compensation for the shared cost of the buildout and maintenance of the super chargers.

 

[sandpiper]

In order to be offended by this idea they'd need to think about it. ICE executives do not think about 'refueling' at all. Gasoline stations are ubiquitous the world over. They haven't thought about the issue at all until very recently. It will take another couple fo years before they all really understand viscerally what the charging issue really is. An academic understadning just is not good enough. Further, almost none of them understand that BEV owners who have long range vehicles actually like making road trips with them. GM might begin to understand the issue with the Bolt, but I'd not bet on quick understanding from that crowd.

No.... you're assuming that people are stupid. They're not. The automakers are full of really bright people. But they're surrounded by constraints - some real and some not so real. Don't underestimate power of inertia and entrenched self interests within a larger organization. Tesla's lack of history and experience was both a blessing and a curse.

 

[scaesare]

Yes, Tesla has the significant head start in infrastructure. But they are not the only ones making plans:
5 major automakers join forces to deploy 400 ultra-fast (350 kW) charging stations for electric vehicles in Europe

I wonder why no other automotive company has chosen to design their vehicles to use the super charger network. Elon Musk has said in the past that Tesla would allow this for fair compensation for the shared cost of the buildout and maintenance of the super chargers.

FYI, we've had some discussion on another thread pointing out some of the overall considerations on the practicality of "350kW Charging Stations".

 

[jbcarioca]

No.... you're assuming that people are stupid. They're not. The automakers are full of really bright people. But they're surrounded by constraints - some real and some not so real. Don't underestimate power of inertia and entrenched self interests within a larger organization. Tesla's lack of history and experience was both a blessing and a curse.

Actually I am assuming nothing of the sort. After four decades of professional connections with some of the people about whom I wrote I know they are often very bright people indeed. Being bright is not enough, though. In most cases the senior executive decision-makers have spent their entire professional lives with the same firm. Their exposure to competitors or the broader world is often conditioned by their narrow perspective. Your comments about "...inertia and entrenched self interests..." suggest you're well aware of those issues.

Were we not in a public forum I could become far more detailed. I did suggest they had "...an academic understanding". It is excruciatingly difficult to baig a deeper understanding of 'others' when you live in Grosse Pointe Woods or nearby.

 

[jbcarioca]

[

Actually, both Nissan and Kia Hyundai have installed CHAdeMO DC quick chargers at their dealerships - which are typically close to freeways, making them somewhat convenient. And iirc, Mitsubishi was one of the very first to get they're DC quick Chargers installed at their corporate headquarters around Cypress California. So I suspect they'll be putting in a lot more once they get the plug-in Outlander here in the US. It's a very popular model in much of Europe and Asia. Moreover in Japan Toyota's new plug-in, the prime, is DC quick charger enabled & a few dealerships there have installed them. So it might be more accurate to say that it's GM that's dropping the ball with DC quick Chargers.
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True. We should also give Nissan credit for having supplied a fairly large number of their "Destination Charger" equivalent in some area, and they've all been CHAdeMO, further they've upgraded quite a few of the older ones.

 

[McRat]

...

I wonder why no other automotive company has chosen to design their vehicles to use the super charger network. Elon Musk has said in the past that Tesla would allow this for fair compensation for the shared cost of the buildout and maintenance of the super chargers.

I would imagine Tesla Motors does have the answer for that. Companies do not negotiate via Facebook and Twitter. It is done with NDAs (non-disclosure agreements) in place before specifics are even discussed.

You certainly are not going to hear the story from the parties involved.

 

[McRat]

Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, Mitsu, even Toyota are all CHAdeMO members (even the new prius plugin, the 'prime' have it in japan) and there are WAY more CHAdeMO's than the frankenplugs by what - maybe a factor of 50? That huge ratio difference .... isn't that the reason musk made a CHAdeMO adapter for Tesla? Who cares if virtually non-existent frankenplugs are preferred by more car manufacturers, at least until - or 'if' the builders get on board & ramp up cars that can actually use 'em - imo.
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Looking at the greater Lake Forest, CA area:

9 CHAdeMO
8 CCS
0 Superchargers

Check for yourself. Heck, start in San Diego (San Ysidro) and end in British Columbia and turn on just CCS or CHAdeMO and look.

CCS is going to be supported by more models than CHAdeMO in the USA. Nissan dealers have CHAdeMO's, but BMW/VW put up CCS only sites both at their dealers and remote locations. And ChargePoint/EVgo are usually dual or triple systems (AC J1772).

Yes, 3 years ago the 50 to 1 was accurate. However, the fastest growing system is CCS.

 

[sandpiper]

Actually I am assuming nothing of the sort. After four decades of professional connections with some of the people about whom I wrote I know they are often very bright people indeed. Being bright is not enough, though. In most cases the senior executive decision-makers have spent their entire professional lives with the same firm. Their exposure to competitors or the broader world is often conditioned by their narrow perspective. Your comments about "...inertia and entrenched self interests..." suggest you're well aware of those issues.

Were we not in a public forum I could become far more detailed. I did suggest they had "...an academic understanding". It is excruciatingly difficult to baig a deeper understanding of 'others' when you live in Grosse Pointe Woods or nearby.

I generally agree. But in folks I know, I've seen more resignation than denial. "Yes, we understand, but it's not possible for us to do that.". Tesla is betting the lot. Being in that situation sharpens the mind and makes things possible that are not otherwise.

 

[bonaire]

The most likely candidate for EV charging "networks" would be for large grid-provider companies or holding companies like Exelon to deploy systems at locations within their power provider networks and charge on a per-kWh basis - at a rate that could be mildly profitable but not hugely. So for example, if an Exelon PowerCompany (PoCo) sells kWh at .09/kWh to industry, they could sell car recharging services at maybe .15/kWh to the consumer through their own branded "pumps". Many banks put their brand of ATM in each of hundreds of regional convenience stores. The reason is to get money flowing in the system. Electric companies want to sell more kWh (but just don't want to tell you that - because they need to sounds like they are trying to cut back). So, if they can deliver bulk power in 30-50 kWh blocks to passing-by customers for a few bucks, why not do it? Only main issue is the cost of pump maintenance. The UK and other parts of Europe have had mixed luck in keeping their DCFC systems operational 24x7 and need service techs sent around to fix some of them. If companies like ABB can partner with companies like Exelon and if they can use the various green-shoots monies from DoE or others to implement charging networks, it might work out that multi-head ABB DCFC stations get deployed on a larger scale at highway rest stops and near them. They can't be in locations like grocery store prime parking lot spaces where they get ICEd all the time.

For EVs to "take off" they can't rely on free charging networks. The fuel needs a viable and sustainable market price or just slightly above. That would get people in apartments buying EVs who cannot charge "at home".

 

[mrElbe]

An example of that is the Hydro Quebec utility with their Electric Circuit charging stations.

 

[hill]

........snip......
CCS is going to be supported by more models than CHAdeMO in the USA. Nissan dealers have CHAdeMO's, but BMW/VW put up CCS only sites both at their dealers and remote locations .....snip....

ok - then we're in agreement because the opp said manufacturers are not helping with infrastructure & we've both mentioned multiple manufacturers that are putting in DC quick Chargers .... or at least i think you're saying SAE quick charging cars are going to, or eventually be putting some or more installs in at their dealerships.
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[McRat]

VW/BMW have already put in some remote location CCS only sites, but they are only 24 kWh that I have seen.

 

[zambono]

BTW, the title is incorrect because Tesla has already done just that.

I did start the body with new automaker, but you get the idea

 

[Jeff N]

Again.... everyone is ignoring the nationwide CCS network that is actually being built.

Welcome to Electrify America | Mission

$2 billion in $500 million 2.5 year chunks. Money for ongoing maintenance. 200 highway corridor fast charging plazas/stations.

Only some of that will be spent on that project because it's huge amount of money but a good sized chunk will go for highway charging and it can easily be as much as Tesla has been spending in the USA.

 

[scaesare]

Again.... everyone is ignoring the nationwide CCS network that is actually being built.

Welcome to Electrify America | Mission

$2 billion in $500 million 2.5 year chunks. Money for ongoing maintenance. 200 highway corridor fast charging plazas/stations.

Only some of that will be spent on that project because it's huge amount of money but a good sized chunk will go for highway charging and it can easily be as much as Tesla has been spending in the USA.

I agree that this has the potential to be interesting... and I sincerely hope the execution will allow the system to be useful.

The concern I have is that a company forced to do this punitively in order to satisfy a mandate and perhaps encumbered with political issues may have a very different focus than one intent on solving real world EV issues.

But I do hold out hope.... I just haven't been real WOW'ed by the "design by consensus" systems thus far.

 

[rw86347]

One easy possibility for an existing car company would be to put charging stations at their dealerships. Ford, for example has over 3,000 dealers.

Nissan did this can you still can't leave Denver with a Leaf even if it could drive as far as a tesla.