No LTE in 2014

[techMology]

I'm not really worried about replacing the radio module itself as much, since I would hope that it was designed as a separate module. I'm not an antenna expert, but I imagine that the existing radio antenna might need to be changed or updated to address the different frequencies used by different carriers and countries, unless they already designed the antenna to work for future LTE upgrades. An antenna replacement would probably push the price up quite a bit.

There are certain antenna considerations to be made for LTE (MIMO, beam forming, diversity), and potentially frequency (technology independent, although 700 MHz is a new LTE only band). It's most likely these considerations weren't made for the current car, but without examining the module, we can't know for sure. The impact would be worse performance (and lower peak rates), but even if you used the same antenna design, it would still be better than HSPA (just not optimal).

Since a car is so large, it's easier to design for the antenna (limited space constraints). Smart phones are a totally different story.

 

[techMology]

I understand his point but you know this is not how the service centers work, they replace the entire "black box" not individual components. This also assumes that it is a module (which it probably is) and not soldered on the board. Either way my point still stands, the retrofit will most likely require them to replace the screen and will be expensive. It doesn't really matter to me since I wouldn't pay for the upgrade anyway, I was just trying to set expectations low for a "reasonably priced" upgrade path.

This sounds more like speculation than actual fact. Why is the wireless radio not a replaceable "module" and the touch screen another replaceable "module"? This would make the most sense. It's possible they just plug into one another.

You don't replace the rim if you have a flat tire. I would like to think Tesla was a little smarter in their design here (but again, I don't know for sure).

Setting expectations for an upgrade price based on fact versus speculation actually has little to do with the mechanics of the actual upgrade. But, let's be honest, Tesla will probably charge an arm and a leg for the upgrade, even if it's easy. Look at the rear "cup holders"! Pretty sure they're not worth what they are charging.

 

[rlang59]

This sounds more like speculation than actual fact. Why is the wireless radio not a replaceable "module" and the touch screen another replaceable "module"? This would make the most sense. It's possible they just plug into one another.

You don't replace the rim if you have a flat tire. I would like to think Tesla was a little smarter in their design here (but again, I don't know for sure).

Setting expectations for an upgrade price based on fact versus speculation actually has little to do with the mechanics of the actual upgrade. But, let's be honest, Tesla will probably charge an arm and a leg for the upgrade, even if it's easy. Look at the rear "cup holders"! Pretty sure they're not worth what they are charging.

The part you seem to be missing is that the wireless radio is a module that is part of the center screen inside of the EMI enclosure. This is not something that is going to be changed at a service center. Based on the MAC address the Tesla reports it is probably this or similar:
FC6050 B/W - Parrot OEM

That is not going to be swapped out at a service center, they will change out the entire screen.

 

[Robert.Boston]

The simplest option is to tether the car to your LTE phone.

 

[Trnsl8r]

I'm at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona and just had an interesting conversation with someone at Volvo heading their connected car offering.

The reason LTE is not available yet (even though some manufacturers have announced it - he shook his head at this) is because there is no LTE chipset certified for automotive applications. They don't expect a certified chipset commercially available until late 2014 (November, maybe). So until then, it's 3G (HSPA) and FauxG (HSPA+).

He also reiterated their view that 3G "is enough; 1-2 Mbps, roughly". He also said consumers aren't really asking for it, but marketing is driving the request for LTE ("another sticker on the box").

So there you have it.

The simplest option is to tether the car to your LTE phone.

(Emphasis mine.)

Speculation: I think the bold part is why we haven't seen tethering from the phone yet. Maybe you can't (legally) since the phone wouldn't be "certified for automotive" and that's why Elon has always been talking about using the car as a hotspot, for other devices to connect to, rather than the other way around (which in our minds' would make more sense).

 

[techMology]

The part you seem to be missing is that the wireless radio is a module that is part of the center screen inside of the EMI enclosure. This is not something that is going to be changed at a service center. Based on the MAC address the Tesla reports it is probably this or similar:
FC6050 B/W - Parrot OEM

That is not going to be swapped out at a service center, they will change out the entire screen.

Not sure what "I'm missing". I don't see a screen attached to that module (unless that's what I'm "missing, but I don't see one at that link).

A MAC address doesn't indicate design, merely manufacturer and function.

Regardless, not sure why you're so bent on trying to prove that the wireless connectivity module is somehow permanently attached to the screen or anything else. It certainly doesn't indicate anything like that in any other networked device (e.g. laptop, desktop, etc...). I merely said it's stupid if it is. It indicates poor design (if what you assert is true, which, you haven't proven).

A "daughter board" which is what you've linked to, is designed to be attached to a motherboard (typically via a standard slot), which means it would be easily replaceable without replacing the entire "screen". Like pretty much any other wireless connectivity module I've seen.

But whatever. I don't know. And you don't either. You're merely speculating.

My only point was LTE would be nice (for real reasons, even if all don't agree), and that is available as an upgrade, it would be great, and I would probably do it because it would provide value to me. Expensive or not, cumbersome or not. Module only, or full screen replacement. I'll make that decision when it becomes an option.

 

[andrewket]

Let's hope the model X launches with LTE. It would be quite annoying if the first production cars are 3G and then it cuts over to LTE after the first few thousand cars.

 

[rlang59]

Not sure what "I'm missing". I don't see a screen attached to that module (unless that's what I'm "missing, but I don't see one at that link).

A MAC address doesn't indicate design, merely manufacturer and function.

Regardless, not sure why you're so bent on trying to prove that the wireless connectivity module is somehow permanently attached to the screen or anything else. It certainly doesn't indicate anything like that in any other networked device (e.g. laptop, desktop, etc...). I merely said it's stupid if it is. It indicates poor design (if what you assert is true, which, you haven't proven).

A "daughter board" which is what you've linked to, is designed to be attached to a motherboard (typically via a standard slot), which means it would be easily replaceable without replacing the entire "screen". Like pretty much any other wireless connectivity module I've seen.

But whatever. I don't know. And you don't either. You're merely speculating.

My only point was LTE would be nice (for real reasons, even if all don't agree), and that is available as an upgrade, it would be great, and I would probably do it because it would provide value to me. Expensive or not, cumbersome or not. Module only, or full screen replacement. I'll make that decision when it becomes an option.

Inside the screen is the "motherboard" it's not just a screen that is all I am trying to point out, you don't have to believe me. Also I'm not saying that it can't be swapped out without changing the center console just that based on what Tesla has done so far I would not expect that as an option.
Not "bent" on anything, just pointing out you should not expect this to be an upgrade that will be cheap.

 

[techMology]

Inside the screen is the "motherboard" it's not just a screen that is all I am trying to point out, you don't have to believe me. Also I'm not saying that it can't be swapped out without changing the center console just that based on what Tesla has done so far I would not expect that as an option.
Not "bent" on anything, just pointing out you should not expect this to be an upgrade that will be cheap.

Point taken. I never expected it to be a cheap upgrade. Nothing on the MS is cheap.

 

[rlang59]

Point taken. I never expected it to be a cheap upgrade. Nothing on the MS is cheap.

Cost of fuel! :wink:

 

[techMology]

Cost of fuel! :wink:

Touché!

 

[unclegeek]

I would be pretty happy if they just enable HSPA+ as I'm pretty sure I'm just getting regular 3G GSM speeds now.. on my AT&T Android, when I drop to "regular 4G" and not LTE, (HSPA+ in other words) I still get pretty damn good speeds, like in excess of 10mbps.. I heard this is a software function they could enable with a new OTA.. LTE would be great.. but HSPA+ would be cheap.

 

[celltech]

I work for a cell phone carrier and trust me, you want LTE. As other have indicated its the lack of latency that LTE really brings to the table. UMTS from AT&T and T-Mobile have horrible latency figures. It's just the nature of the standard and not much they can do about it. 1X CDMA from Verizon has much lower latency but a lower throughput at well. This is why a VZ phone feels "faster" when surfing the web even though the ultimate speed is less.

LTE gives you the best of both worlds. I don't really think the chipset cost is that much more. Qualcomm pretty much controls the market but Intel has their chips coming out now. I do understand the mobile qualification though. Think about what you can do to your hand held phone when it screws up. Most of us can pull the battery and beat the snot out of it when it locks up. That is undesirable and not tolerated in your car. There are companies with commercial LTE solutions and the car companies need to get on the bandwagon and build them into the autos. I suspect they will be coming soon....

 

[techMology]

I would be pretty happy if they just enable HSPA+ as I'm pretty sure I'm just getting regular 3G GSM speeds now.. on my AT&T Android, when I drop to "regular 4G" and not LTE, (HSPA+ in other words) I still get pretty damn good speeds, like in excess of 10mbps.. I heard this is a software function they could enable with a new OTA.. LTE would be great.. but HSPA+ would be cheap.

The car is HSPA enabled at a maximum data rate of 14 Mbps (which in practice is much lower). You can't upgrade this via software. Regardless, speed isn't the problem, it's latency.

 

[Atebit]

(Emphasis mine.)

Speculation: I think the bold part is why we haven't seen tethering from the phone yet. Maybe you can't (legally) since the phone wouldn't be "certified for automotive" and that's why Elon has always been talking about using the car as a hotspot, for other devices to connect to, rather than the other way around (which in our minds' would make more sense).

You mean we can't tether the car to a phone today?? My advisor has been telling me this is possible (as an interim bridge to LTE) for months now. I guess I should stop by & ask him to demonstrate this feature.

 

[ecarfan]

With V5.8 the car can connect to a wifi network so I thought that meant it can also connect to a phone-generated wifi network as well. On the iPhone that is called a "Personal Hot Spot": the phone becomes a wifi source. I don't have that capability enabled on my iPhone -- I don't pay the additional monthly fee -- so I can't do a test to see if the Model S could make that kind of wifi connection. Seems like it should be able to with V5.8.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

With V5.8 the car can connect to a wifi network so I thought that meant it can also connect to a phone-generated wifi network as well. On the iPhone that is called a "Personal Hot Spot": the phone becomes a wifi source. I don't have that capability enabled on my iPhone -- I don't pay the additional monthly fee -- so I can't do a test to see if the Model S could make that kind of wifi connection. Seems like it should be able to with V5.8.

I have a 4G LTE hot spot which enables me to work in the field. I can tether my Model S to that hotspot via wifi and access 4G LTE speeds in the Model S. It's very simple and works well. The same would apply to a smartphone w/ built-in hot spot.

 

[andrewket]

In the US, most non-unlimited plans have hotspot enabled by default. Just turn it on and your car should see the wifi network.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

In the US, most non-unlimited plans have hotspot enabled by default. Just turn it on and your car should see the wifi network.

Don't you have to pay something like $20 on top of the data plan price for the privilege?! I thought that was the situation with ATT the last I checked...

 

[andrewket]

Don't you have to pay something like $20 on top of the data plan price for the privilege?! I thought that was the situation with ATT the last I checked...

The older plans were this way. The newer plans include hotspot (I can confirm this on Verizon, but I think AT&T is the same.) it makes sense- since the newer plans are all pay for what you use in some increment (typically 2GB) it works in the carrier's favor to make it easy for you to use more data.

I'm grandfathered on an unlimited data plan on verizon. I do have to pay extra for the hot spot feature. Most months it would be cheaper for me to be on a newer pay as you go plan. But then I have a month where I use 18 GB and that would be expensive without the unlimited data.