No more radar means the car cannot see through fog?

[whitex]

Last few days was watching my AP1 car and it sees 2 cars ahead, even under big SUV's or vans. It doesn't do phantom braking like my AP2 car on a highway, so obviously MobileEye figured it out (and with way less sensors too).

I think it might be simpler than we think. Perhaps Elon couldn't figure out how to reinvent how to use radar to match what MobileEye did, so he removed the radar instead and put it in a win column because it saved money on each car too. That is how Elon operates - a strong believer in not using "not invented here" tech, and if you can't make something work, just give up and move on. Remember how proud he was about "re-inventing" Body Side Monitoring in 2014? All those "dumb" manufacturers who put both parking ultrasonics and radar BSM in their cars. Elon is a genius, use parking ultrasonics for both, save money! The fact that it only works maybe half the time, oh well, that's a taboo topic around Elon, because it would make him look dumb to not have tested those sensors before putting them into production or stop and think why those are called "parking sensors" - a simple drive down a highway would have shown him that, well, high speed wind wooshing down the sides of the car tend to interfere with ultrasonic sensors (essentially speakers/microphones).

So this may be just another BSM or rain sensor or light sensor, Elon thinks he can do without and will fix it in software later. I'm sure it will work fine half the time, eventually with software improvements maybe even more. Oh, except with no radar it won't be as easy as with BSM or rain sensors to show that it doesn't work as well, so better for Elon.

 

[P100D_Me]

That is how Elon operates

I wish you were Elon's personal assistant sometimes, he does need some home truths about his ideas and half baked implementations spelt out by end users and not corporate yes men (or women).

 

[SO16]

Last few days was watching my AP1 car and it sees 2 cars ahead, even under big SUV's or vans. It doesn't do phantom braking like my AP2 car on a highway, so obviously MobileEye figured it out (and with way less sensors too).

I think it might be simpler than we think. Perhaps Elon couldn't figure out how to reinvent how to use radar to match what MobileEye did, so he removed the radar instead and put it in a win column because it saved money on each car too. That is how Elon operates - a strong believer in not using "not invented here" tech, and if you can't make something work, just give up and move on. Remember how proud he was about "re-inventing" Body Side Monitoring in 2014? All those "dumb" manufacturers who put both parking ultrasonics and radar BSM in their cars. Elon is a genius, use parking ultrasonics for both, save money! The fact that it only works maybe half the time, oh well, that's a taboo topic around Elon, because it would make him look dumb to not have tested those sensors before putting them into production or stop and think why those are called "parking sensors" - a simple drive down a highway would have shown him that, well, high speed wind wooshing down the sides of the car tend to interfere with ultrasonic sensors (essentially speakers/microphones).

So this may be just another BSM or rain sensor or light sensor, Elon thinks he can do without and will fix it in software later. I'm sure it will work fine half the time, eventually with software improvements maybe even more. Oh, except with no radar it won't be as easy as with BSM or rain sensors to show that it doesn't work as well, so better for Elon.

It could also be due to working around patents owned by Mobileye.

 

[whitex]

It could also be due to working around patents owned by Mobileye.

The thought did cross my mind, and it's not inconsistent with what I wrote above. Licensing a patent from MobileEye would go against Elon's "not-invented-here" mindset. So it's possible that he simply could not re-invent how to use radar, so he dropped it. Notice that others have made radar work for anything from EAB to Level 4 autonomy, so either they licensed some patents from MobileEye or maybe there is some conventional way to use it which Elon cannot stand to use because he didn't invent it.

 

[whitex]

I wish you were Elon's personal assistant sometimes, he does need some home truths about his ideas and half baked implementations spelt out by end users and not corporate yes men (or women).

Not a job which would interest me.

 

[SO16]

Not a job which would interest me.

You do it now for free. Might as well get paid for it.

 

[whitex]

You do it now for free. Might as well get paid for it.

I'll take Elon's money if he wants to pay me, but I'm not inclined to take orders from him though. Of course, everyone has their price, I'm sure there is a price for which I would be willing to work for him for a few years. I have friends and professional acquaintances who worked for Elon, though they did it mostly for the chance to work on something they couldn't work on elsewhere. None of them want to work for Elon again, even though they value their experience while working for him (as do their current employers).

 

[bob_p]

Phantom braking appears to have two major causes:

1. The AP sensors are unsure about an object ahead, so it initiates a reduction in speed until it verifies it is safe. The software is taking a very conservative response to potential hazards - including when vehicles cross at an upcoming intersection, when the AP software slows down when human drivers would likely have concluded the vehicle will clear the intersection well before they reach the intersection.
   
   
2. Errors in the speed limit database also cause rapid braking on highways, especially in areas with recent road changes or construction, where the speed limit has been changed or the road bed has moved or changed. Just as Musk claims that stored HD maps are not very useful - the same is true for stored speed limit data - speed limits change and until the AP software is reliably using the posted speed limit signs, we'll likely continue to get phantom braking due to bad speed limit data. [Reading speed limit signs is easy - determining if a specific sign applies to a specific lane is much harder - difficult for human drivers some times.]

Tesla (Musk) has decided to be more conservative in the above situations and initiate "phantom braking" rather than risk having the AP system drive into an accident.

In either of the above cases, radar would probably not make any difference - the cause for the braking is object recognition (is the dark spot on the roadway ahead a dark object or a shadow?) or bad data in the onboard database.

 

[Aggmeister2010]

I'm also happy with my 2015 AP1 performance & recently upgrading to MCU2 made it even smoother, e.g. at taking highway speed curves, less desire to veer towards every exit when the right lane marking disappears, and general situational awareness of other cars. I also like radar's ability to see the car in front of the car in front of me, which I don't understand how a vision system could replicate.

Interesting to hear that MCU2 had an effect on AP1. I'm curious, because my understanding was that AP1 is entierly managed by the 'brain' that's below the camera, and basically feeds data to the drive system when it's in use. I didn't think its actual function was influenced by the MCU.

When you put a camera six inches above the road, you can see under the car in front to the car in front of them. I imagine it's like the fellow above you said, that Tesla compared cameras with radar and didn't notice much of a difference, possibly even finding that cameras alone were actually better. Since none of us did any tests, I'd go with Tesla's decision.

I mean, Tesla's engineering teams aren't morons, so there must be something to this. But as a dumb observer, I don't see how a camera mounted down low in the "get peppered with rocks and road spray" zone would give them much reliability, and with just a single camera I imagine it'd struggle with perceiving depth. There's a lot that would go into identifying a vehicle ahead of another via vision vs a simple radar signal.

 

[whitex]

Phantom braking appears to have two major causes:

1. The AP sensors are unsure about an object ahead, so it initiates a reduction in speed until it verifies it is safe. The software is taking a very conservative response to potential hazards - including when vehicles cross at an upcoming intersection, when the AP software slows down when human drivers would likely have concluded the vehicle will clear the intersection well before they reach the intersection.
   
   
2. Errors in the speed limit database also cause rapid braking on highways, especially in areas with recent road changes or construction, where the speed limit has been changed or the road bed has moved or changed. Just as Musk claims that stored HD maps are not very useful - the same is true for stored speed limit data - speed limits change and until the AP software is reliably using the posted speed limit signs, we'll likely continue to get phantom braking due to bad speed limit data. [Reading speed limit signs is easy - determining if a specific sign applies to a specific lane is much harder - difficult for human drivers some times.]

Tesla (Musk) has decided to be more conservative in the above situations and initiate "phantom braking" rather than risk having the AP system drive into an accident.

In either of the above cases, radar would probably not make any difference - the cause for the braking is object recognition (is the dark spot on the roadway ahead a dark object or a shadow?) or bad data in the onboard database.

The very same stretch of highway (interstate, so no intersections, no varying speed limits on that stretch, no changes in speed limit in at least two decades I've driven it), AP1 does not phantom brake, and AP2 does (to the point of where I just turn it off). Perhaps you are right and radar for Tesla might not make any difference in their current implementation - Tesla with all of their cameras, ultrasonic sensors and radar, simply cannot match a 7 year old single camera + radar solution from MobileEye. My point was that radar could be useful if Tesla used it right, not that it is useful in Tesla's implementation of AutoPilot.

 

[2101Guy]

drove my 2017 S last night (no rain, clear skies) with 2021.4.18 for the first time using FSD at night on this version. Major interstate along stretches with minimal or no lightpole lighting. Definitely annoying with FSD enabled. Did not get a phantom breaking event while approaching an overpass but got two (20 min drive) while approaching the typical green overhead highway signs. Also, the auto high beams were going low to high and back again far too often than they used to.

 

[QUBO]

Interesting to hear that MCU2 had an effect on AP1. I'm curious, because my understanding was that AP1 is entierly managed by the 'brain' that's below the camera, and basically feeds data to the drive system when it's in use. I didn't think its actual function was influenced by the MCU.



I mean, Tesla's engineering teams aren't morons, so there must be something to this. But as a dumb observer, I don't see how a camera mounted down low in the "get peppered with rocks and road spray" zone would give them much reliability, and with just a single camera I imagine it'd struggle with perceiving depth. There's a lot that would go into identifying a vehicle ahead of another via vision vs a simple radar signal.

In regards to MCU2 upgrade making AP1 smoother, I'll say it is my experience as a driver, not any special knowledge I have as to the hardware/software implementation. It's possible that MCU2 can now better keep up with the MobileEye data rate, or it's possible that I'm subconsciously trying to find additional justification for the $1500 (no sarcasm intended).

As a retired engineer I also have trouble understanding how a single camera mounted very low could operate effectively, much less survive -- but it is a possibility. FWIW, I drove around in the rain yesterday and the rear camera was covered with raindrops and was useless.

 

[bob_p]

When Tesla introduced AP2 several years ago, the phantom braking was a reasonable action for the AP software to take when it wasn't entirely confident about the objects ahead.

Especially with Tesla's movement away from radar, the continuing presence of phantom braking should be a concern - if the software is still not confident of the objects that might or might not be ahead, then removing radar eliminates additional data which might have helped.

Same is true about braking unnecessarily when vehicles are crossing in the intersection ahead. Human drivers are able to look at the vehicles and determine that if the vehicles maintain speed, they'll clear the intersection before becoming a problem. But the AP software continues to insist on quickly applying the brakes - even when the vehicle crossing ahead has almost completed clearing the intersection.

It's possible the new rules engine in the next software release will fix these long standing AP issues - but if they are still present, customers could reasonably be concerned that Tesla should have more, not less, sensor data to properly interpret camera data.

 

[whitex]

In regards to MCU2 upgrade making AP1 smoother, I'll say it is my experience as a driver, not any special knowledge I have as to the hardware/software implementation. It's possible that MCU2 can now better keep up with the MobileEye data rate, or it's possible that I'm subconsciously trying to find additional justification for the $1500 (no sarcasm intended).

As a retired engineer I also have trouble understanding how a single camera mounted very low could operate effectively, much less survive -- but it is a possibility. FWIW, I drove around in the rain yesterday and the rear camera was covered with raindrops and was useless.

MCU is not involved in AP1. You can prove it to yourself by rebooting the MCU while AP is engaged - it will continue to auto-steer even though you might hear beeps indicating it's disengaging, re-engaging, etc. Good thing too, considering how laggy MCU can get and the fact that it has been known to spontaneously reboot itself on some versions of software which Tesla released.

 

[IdahoRenegade]

Infrared can cut through fog and dust, although I do not know which wavelengths are being imaged by the cameras.

Agreed that pulling over when encountering zero visibility is only useful if everyone behind you does the same.

That's what I've been curious about as well-and haven't been able to find an answer for. I'd THINK IR would be involved, if nothing else than for seeing pedestrians, animals, or other threats at night. But I haven't been able to verify that.

 

[WhiteT]

I was under the impression that MY 2022 has radar and could see in fog. I don’t have FSD however this weekend on a senic drive on Skyline drive in VA there was heavy fog and even driving at 20 mph I noticed the radar didn’t pick up a single vehicle or cyclist yes there were cyclist in the road in very heavy fog.

 

[DerbyDave]

Tesla model S has not equipped the cars with radar since 2/15/2022. Since last month or two, they are removing the ultrasonic sensors. Tesla is moving to Vision Only in all their cars. All Full Self Drive Beta cars are vision only, and 2022.20.9 software began other Model S cars with Vision Only.

 

[whitex]

Tesla model S has not equipped the cars with radar since 2/15/2022. Since last month or two, they are removing the ultrasonic sensors. Tesla is moving to Vision Only in all their cars. All Full Self Drive Beta cars are vision only, and 2022.20.9 software began other Model S cars with Vision Only.

Tesla To Bring Back Updated HD Radar To Its Vehicles With Autopilot HW4 Suggests New Finding

Tesla recently removed radar from the company's vehicles and moved to a camera-based pure vision system. However, today we have gotten conflicting information that suggests, Tesla is planning to bring back updated HD radar to the company's vehicles with the upcoming Autopilot Hardware 4 upgrade.

www.torquenews.com

Tesla bringing back RADAR?

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=Y&application_id=TAi5l5atHcj4G%2FIFPFuKbA%3D%3D&fcc_id=2AEIM-1541584 76GHz. Is that the same as the previous units?

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[DerbyDave]

Tesla To Bring Back Updated HD Radar To Its Vehicles With Autopilot HW4 Suggests New Finding

Tesla recently removed radar from the company's vehicles and moved to a camera-based pure vision system. However, today we have gotten conflicting information that suggests, Tesla is planning to bring back updated HD radar to the company's vehicles with the upcoming Autopilot Hardware 4 upgrade.

www.torquenews.com

Tesla bringing back RADAR?

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=Y&application_id=TAi5l5atHcj4G%2FIFPFuKbA%3D%3D&fcc_id=2AEIM-1541584 76GHz. Is that the same as the previous units?

teslamotorsclub.com

Yes, perhaps HW4 with HD radar and totally reworked and repositioned cameras may even make it on the Cybertruck. The current vision only platform was the last significant platform change without ultrasonic sensors. I personally think a lidar type system will eventually have to be added. All the current legacy models being built today and in the immediate future will remain vision only and limited in their self driving. We will not be updated to the next generation FSD hardware.

 

[whitex]

Yes, perhaps HW4 with HD radar and totally reworked and repositioned cameras may even make it on the Cybertruck. The current vision only platform was the last significant platform change without ultrasonic sensors. I personally think a lidar type system will eventually have to be added. All the current legacy models being built today and in the immediate future will remain vision only and limited in their self driving. We will not be updated to the next generation FSD hardware.

However, if you think you're getting a free HW4 hardware upgrade or a refund for FSD once FSD on HW4 with lidar and new radar moves on, good luck to you! Elon is really good at using fine print to weasel out of advertised features - remember 691hp P85D which was battery limited to 463hp? But the "motors were capable" so Elon said Tesla was off the hook. Enjoy your FSD capable floor mats folks!