No permanent injuries have ever occured due to a crash in Model S

[Discoducky]

No permanent injuries to Model S occupants have occured due to a crash

I'm happy to update the title of this is one day not true. But for now it is true. All known accidents and crashes taken into consideration.

 

[efusco]

One day it may read "No deaths....", then after that "No multiple deaths...", then "Less than 100 people have died...."; eventually, "no one who's died in a Model S has gone to hell."

It's a bad measure, for a lot of reasons. Nice to say, makes us feel better, but really pretty meaningless unless you're comparing similar mechanisms and related injuries or deaths.

 

[Hybris]

No injuries? How can we know that? Are all crashes documented? All people checked at hospitals? X-ray for whiplash? How can we know this? Dont want to be negative but just wondering where the facts come from?

 

[brianman]

No injuries? How can we know that? Are all crashes documented? All people checked at hospitals? X-ray for whiplash? How can we know this? Dont want to be negative but just wondering where the facts come from?

I believe our collective understanding is that Tesla receives telemetry regarding collision events and contacts the owners directly. Given the availability of this information to them, it would be a significant violation of public trust for Tesla to keep officially stating "no permanent injuries" if they knew otherwise.

 

[JST]

Yes, this is not a good point to make, and I wish we could constain it to the dustbin of history. As Musk himself observed the other day, the law of large numbers means that eventually someone will be injured or die in a Tesla. It's not a matter of if. It's a matter of when. Why create an "unsinkable" narrative that you know cannot last? The more that becomes the mantra, the more it will be a story when the worst eventually happens.

Think about it: if all Harland and Wolff and White Star had ever said about the Titanic was that it was a really nice and safe ship, the Titanic event would still have been an unspeakable tragedy--but it would not have become the modern-day Icarus fable that it became.

 

[Grendal]

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811630.pdf

Here are the 2010 statistics on injuries and death from NHTSA. There are 1.1 deaths per 100 million miles driven. I'd say the Model S is ahead of the curve so far. It is definitely ahead of the curve for serious injuries. A rough estimate would be that we are at 120 million miles driven for all the Model S's on the road. That number is a personal guess based on what I know. 20K cars on the road with an average of 6000 miles per car. The true number is probably a little more than that but I'll guess conservatively.

 

[Mike_Schlechter]

The problem with this stat of zero deaths, zero permanent injuries is there are so many factors aside from the vehicle itself that come into play in a fatal or permanently debilitating accident. Hell, simply not being belted could make a relatively minor impact a fatal crash. Does that mean Model S is not safe? Of course not. Given the number of owners I have seen on this forum bragging about their high-speed drives, I'm certain Kinetic Energy will eventually win a fight with a Model S.

I would say the deaths per miles driven is a decent way to approach it, but also maintain the car should be compared to its peer group - S-Class, A8, etc.. Those are all extremely safe gas buggies, but still I know people die in them.

Long term I expect it to play out that Model S is an all-time great car in terms of safety, innovation and style, but I'm just not sure the true value, above rhetorical flourish, of saying no one has died in one yet.

 

[Discoducky]

Yes, this is not a good point to make, and I wish we could constain it to the dustbin of history. As Musk himself observed the other day, the law of large numbers means that eventually someone will be injured or die in a Tesla. It's not a matter of if. It's a matter of when. Why create an "unsinkable" narrative that you know cannot last? The more that becomes the mantra, the more it will be a story when the worst eventually happens.

Think about it: if all Harland and Wolff and White Star had ever said about the Titanic was that it was a really nice and safe ship, the Titanic event would still have been an unspeakable tragedy--but it would not have become the modern-day Icarus fable that it became.

I'm a big fan of the signs on constructions sites that keep track of "Days without a lost time accident" and it is a good method for keeping people safe on the job site.

 

[neroden]

I'm happy to update the title of this is one day not true. But for now it is true. All known accidents and crashes taken into consideration.

This is not true.

No permanent injuries to the people in the Model S have occured. Remember the California three-car crash where the Model S driver appeared to have been racing a Mercedes, and killed two people in, IIRC, a Honda?

So yes, there have been injuries due to a crash in a Model S. Don't discount them because they were to people in other cars. Drive carefully, folks -- you're driving a potential killer of a car.

 

[ecarfan]

This is not true.

Of course the OP meant no permanent injuries to the people in the Model S have occurred.

So it is true.

 

[neroden]

Of course the OP meant no permanent injuries to the people in the Model S have occurred.

That isn't what the OP wrote, and there's no "of course" about it. I suggest that the OP amend his/her statement.

So it is true.

It's flatly false. In fact, the complete disregard for people outside the car shows a dangerous attitude, which is sometimes called "windshield perspective" -- an attitude which is all too easy to adopt, but one we should all try to avoid.

 

[Discoducky]

That isn't what the OP wrote, and there's no "of course" about it. I suggest that the OP amend his/her statement.


It's flatly false. In fact, the complete disregard for people outside the car shows a dangerous attitude, which is sometimes called "windshield perspective" -- an attitude which is all too easy to adopt, but one we should all try to avoid.

ecarfan is right and I'm happy to update the title to reflect.

 

[Todd Burch]

I agree that it is wise to not tout this statistic:

1) There are still far, far, far too few miles driven on the Model S for it to be statistically meaningful.
2) The car should be compared to safety ratings of other cars in its class, not average deaths per mile.
3) agree with the Titanic syndrome. Keep waving zero deaths in front of people. When it happens (and it certainly WILL happen), it looks that much worse.

While intentions are usually good, despite the great things on this forum I think we often do a disservice to ourselves here.

 

[dsm363]

Kind of parsing words and over reacting a little but ok. Of course discoducky was talking about people in the Model S as that is the safety Tesla can mostly control. Of course any injuries or worse to other people outside the car is horrible and not desired but that has nothing to do with the safety of the Model S other than it is a large car. There are plenty of large cars on the roads.

 

[birdsaresmarter]

This is not true.

[snip]
Drive carefully, folks -- you're driving a potential killer of a car.

Everyone [who drives] drives a potential killer of a car. I don't think there are any exceptions.

 

[uselesslogin]

\What injuries are recorded in the 2.2 million number the census bureau publishes?
http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/12s1106.pdf

I mean 2.2 million injuries in 3 trillion road miles is like one injury every 1.3 million miles driven. If there are no injuries in a Tesla that would normally go into this statistic that compares to 100 injuries that would otherwise normally happen in 130 million road miles. Now maybe there are some Model S injuries that aren't very serious that would go into that statistic. Still, if the number is supposed to be 100 I would have expected some Model S drivers to at least leave the scene in an ambulance. I can't recall anyone even saying if that happened and you would think you would hear about it.

 

[ChadS]

I don't go out of my way to make Disco's claim, and I certainly don't think Tesla should tout it - I agree with those that have pointed out that it will look bad once it is no longer true.

However, there are a LOT of people that have seen a single sensational news report are walking up to owners and saying the cars aren't safe. A long discussion of the actual odds would probably not be workable or convincing even if we had enough data to say either way - which we don't (which is why I don't get the threads that are 100s of posts long arguing about it).

I think for now Disco's assertion isn't such a bad way to respond to those people. Something short, easy to grasp, that really cuts to the core of their concern. Though I'd probably start it with "So far there have not been..."

 

[brianman]

This is not true.

No permanent injuries to the people in the Model S have occured. Remember the California three-car crash where the Model S driver appeared to have been racing a Mercedes, and killed two people in, IIRC, a Honda?

So yes, there have been injuries due to a crash in a Model S. Don't discount them because they were to people in other cars. Drive carefully, folks -- you're driving a potential killer of a car.

Note the word "in" in the title. Unless otherwise clarified, that implies occupants of the vehicle (including the hamster in the frunk).

- - - Updated - - -

I'm happy to update the title of this is one day not true. But for now it is true. All known accidents and crashes taken into consideration.

You won't be able to unless you're a moderator by then.

 

[Hybris]

I believe our collective understanding is that Tesla receives telemetry regarding collision events and contacts the owners directly. Given the availability of this information to them, it would be a significant violation of public trust for Tesla to keep officially stating "no permanent injuries" if they knew otherwise.

This statement would wake another thing. Privacy... Hot topic. I would assume all people in a crash dont report their details regarding medical examinations etc back to tesla... From my own perspective I love that they call when something that looks like a crash occurs. Its an excellent security feature and potential lifesaver. Just a little critical to the facts in this discussion... Also agree to stop using the non killed or hurt in marketing. Focus on the excellent safety of the car but get off the not hurt wagon as people will get hurt in the future. I have concerns around detals like whiplash protection both in the front and especially in the back of the car. Would love to see the results from a Euro NCAP test. If the result is the same there its brilliant.,yes they test whiplash also.